York Copy

[Norm Pearson]

The Kanstul 5/4 CC is the same size as a PT6P

Norm

[ScottM]

I believe the bore on a Mirafone 184 is .705. The 185 was .740 and it was .778 on the 186. At least that is what the brochure from the 1970's I have says.
Inside the cover there is a picture of a pretty young Jim Self!!
ScottM

[Bandmaster]

The Kanstul 33 is a direct copy of the York 33 right down to the metal used in the bell. Lee Stofer did the measurements and still has the horn in his shop used for those measurements. The grands were designed off the CSO horns. Lee went up to Chicago and did the measurements. The 66 is in a similar manner a York copy. I have a 66 and can tell you they play and sound great.

So are the Kanstul grands 5/4 or 6/4 tubas? Kanstul calls them 5/4; but if they are copies of the CSO Yorks, wouldn't they be 6/4?

I have played the new Kanstul 5/4, both the CC and the BBb versions. I own a Holton 345 which is a copy of the CSO York and I own a York 5/4 model 712. I have had someone playing a Kanstul 5/4 sitting right next to me while I was playing my Holton and I sat in at the Gene Porkorny Seminar last June in Redlands where there were several new Kanstul 5/4 tubas sitting right next to Gene's CSO York. The Kanstul is SMALLER than the CSO York!!!!! If Lee took measurements from the CSO York something got lost in the translation. The bottom bows are in no way the same size. The bell from the Kanstul will fit on either my York-Master or my York 712. That being said, the Kanstul 5/4 is a great playing tuba that creates a really big wonderful sound.

[Mark]

The Kanstul 5/4 CC is the same size as a PT6P

Thank you. That answers the question.

[Ferguson]

I've spent some time with Kanstul tubas. The 5/4 tubas are original designs, but the CC did turn out to be very close in size to a PT6P as stated above. It was coincidence as far as I know. These instruments started out as modifications of a 5/4 marching contrabass bugle to create concert tubas. Kanstul ended up making all new bell and bottom bow mandrels at least, as well as a new .750"+ valve set, so only a few parts from the bugle were reused.

Kanstul did measure the 6/4 CSO York, but has not made a tuba that size. Funny story: Kanstul sent some of his staff to Univ. of Redlands, CA when Gene Pokorny was there with the York. One of the team, a fellow well versed in measuring instruments, was using an old paper tape measure that he got for free in the furniture department of Ikea. You've seen those right? There are always a bunch hanging on a hook. You just tear one off. One of the others noticed his tape and said, "Hey, wait a minute" and compared the paper tape to his metal tape measure.

Of course it was way off. Now chastised, the first fellow used a proper measuring tape and got the measurements. Imagine if they'd done their best replica of the York, then found out everything was 5% off. heheheheheheh

Kanstul does make a 6/4 bell. Mike Roylance has one on is BSO Nirschl. I don't know what other horns it's for. The 6/4 tuba project was to be a commission by the CSO to build the first one. I don't know that they ever worked out an agreement about that.

Kanstul's 4/4 top piston York models are his best vintage replica of the York models. The front piston BBb and Eb and the 4/4 model 90 CC are original designs. The front piston BBb and Eb use the same bows as the top piston. The CC reuses the bell and bottom bow, and the other branches are distinct to that horn. That 90 is a nice horn BTW. The reach to the first slide is awkward, but it plays really nicely. I chose one over a Hirsbrunner HB2P for a few years. The smaller bore is a little different blow, but it's easier to control still effective down low. They're a little light on the details though. (No nickel slides, looks a little more home-made than handmade, buffing marks. Mine had a tapered ferrule on backwards. Oopsie...)

SF

[thattubaguy]

The model 90 is a copy of a cut down York CC, that I borrowed for a few weeks, and played next to a model 90(well, I played them at the same time,) and they are very, very similar, both in design and playing characteristics.

[pjv]

I own a Kanstul F and it looks to me as if the "special alloy bells" are red brass.

I believe Kanstul claims that this alloy is very similar to what York used on their horns. Does this mean that Yorks are made from red brass or am I getting something twisted here?

[thattubaguy]

No, it truly is a special alloy very close to what was used in the bells of all of the grand rapids Yorks, and not just"red brass."

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I have rebuilt and restored quite a few York tubas in my life, probably more then just about anyone around today. I have noticed a slight color difference in the original York tubas metal and would say its pretty close to standard 70/30 (copper/zinc) give or take. I don't remember ever seeing a JWYork tuba made of red or gold brass; not saying they don't exist. I recall York trombones and trumpets in rb or gb but only on later models and have seen many of the early Conn instruments that were of high copper alloy as were a few King tubas and helicons from the 10's and teens that I restored a few years back. This, for me, makes the Kanstul story a bit of a head-scratcher and all I can think is that the horn used in the model was possibly a design acceptsion and not the rule. I think I should give em a call and get the real scoop.

Daniel C Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank

[Bandmaster]

I have rebuilt and restored quite a few York tubas in my life, probably more then just about anyone around today. I have noticed a slight color difference in the original York tubas metal and would say its pretty close to standard 70/30 (copper/zinc) give or take. I don't remember ever seeing a JWYork tuba made of red or gold brass; not saying they don't exist. I recall York trombones and trumpets in rb or gb but only on later models and have seen many of the early Conn instruments that were of high copper alloy as were a few King tubas and helicons from the 10's and teens that I restored a few years back. This, for me, makes the Kanstul story a bit of a head-scratcher and all I can think is that the horn used in the model was possibly a design acceptsion and not the rule. I think I should give em a call and get the real scoop.

Daniel C Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

Dan, I know quite a few people over at Kanstul and the word I was given is that they did an extensive metallurgical study on samples of brass from old York instruments to come up with the information they have used to place their rather large order of sheet brass from their supplier. I was told that their supplier ran a special batch with their exact specifications for the alloy.

[GC]

It's actually a bronze alloy, according to information posted here previously. I've seen one of these bells raw, and the pre-polish color is definitely not red brass or standard cartridge brass.

[pjv]

So if the Yorks were a sort of bronze brass that might explain why the Kanstul's are so reddish. I might add that Kanstul's bronze bells don't look that red. Hmmm. These special alloy bells look more like their copper bells.

The Reynolds Contempora "Bronz-o-lyte" bells (ah, the tangerine trombone...) also had that light reddish color. Red bronze is 92% copper & 8% tin (correct?), but I don't know if anyone ever tested the Bronz-o-lites. I read that it might of been 80%/20%.

Sorry for getting off track, but I was just generally curious as to why my Kanstul bell is red and all the York bells I've seen aren't. I think GC has answered this question.

[UDELBR]

Red bronze is 92% copper & 8% tin (correct?)

Red bronze ?

[Steve Marcus]

I don't remember ever seeing a JWYork tuba made of red or gold brass; not saying they don't exist.

I performed Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances on and almost traded for a red brass 6/4 York that Bob Rusk had cut to CC. It was sold to a college student on the west coast and, I think, has changed hands at least once since then.

york 6-4.jpg

[Jess Haney]

Years ago, I heard yamaha was making a copy of the CSO York tuba that was supposed to rival the original york. I am not sure if it ever made it to production, but I would start there.

It is the Yamaha 826 I believe retail $35000.

[Steve Marcus]

Steve, that tuba, in some of it appearance essentials, bears a lot of resemblance to the Big Mouth Brass 6/4 CC.

Bloke, you're correct. I spent some time playing the BMB 6/4 CC and BBb.

The driver of the CSO Yorks verifies that the BMB 6/4 horns are not dissimlar to that other horn in girth and weight.

Dick Barth has slightly reduced the diameter of the BMB bell in comparison to the "old American" tuba that he used as a model.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I haven't ever done repairs on 6/4 York tubas (though I've played and "looked at" some), but I've messed with/restored several 19" bell 4/4 21/32" bore models (Eb/BBb/previously-cut-to-CC) as well as some of the not-quite-19"-bell "tall" (3/4" bore) models...as well as some of the York and York stencil sousaphones...and also the "Grand Rapids" line, et al... All of the York metal that I've encountered has been as Dan describes. I've heard "this" and "that" about Kanstul's reddish-colored metal. I just don't see any historical tie-in - either with York or Holton.

So, this makes it even more of a head-scratcher (for me anyway). If both Joe and I have no experiece with any such reddish metal with respect to York tubas, after having a good deal of experience with York tubas, what is the sorce of this ''special'' alloy and what instruments were used in the extensive research? I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I'm just am having difficulty understanding how this came to be, without EVER seeing any such material used on any examples that have been on my bench... or Joe's. So, is it the metal or the design(shape)?

Dan'l

[ginnboonmiller]

I wouldn't ever assert that I have even the slightest knowledge of metalurgy or whatever, but could the color difference even possibly be a function of aging?

[Steve Marcus]

I had that York in my possession for only 3 days several years ago, so my memory of the information about it may not be totally accurate, including the name of the brass tech who cut the horn.

I can tell you that it was a rose brass finish. I thought that it was very attractive, let alone any metalurgical contribution to the tone quality of the instrument.

Tayler Stokes, who was finishing his Masters in Tuba Performance at DePaul, said that he wanted a smaller horn. He and I traded his 6/4 York CC for my 4/4 Nirschl CC. Although I liked that York very much, I was convinced by the person who had test-played my Nirschl when I first considered buying it from its owner in 1999 that I should never get rid of that Nirschl. In retrospect, as much as I really liked that York, I would truly be missing that 4/4 Nirschl. It continues to be my main horn.

Here are excerpts from the advertisement that Tayler posted when he was offering his York for sale or trade:

According to my sources, this BBb tuba was made in 1910, and cut by Bob Sloop (sp?) at Dillon’s in ’90 or ’91. At the time, or so I am told, large valve sets were not readily available, so what you see on this horn are the original valves (2, 3 & 4), with one additional valve (1) which is allegedly also a York valve from a younger tuba. I have no confirmation on that – it is merely the speculation offered to me. In the spring of ’07 I had the valve set replated and essentially reconstructed. They also went through and made sure all the plumbing was up to snuff, since the first valve is not brazened to the rest (hope I got the lingo right…). In the winter of ’07 I had the fifth valve (whatever it was) replaced with a Nirschl valve. Thus, the valve set is basically brand new, completely up to code and with excellent compression. The first four valves are vented, the rotor is not. This horn also has an AGR. It is somewhat fickle toward climate, I think. When I was in Oregon it worked alright, but needed some persuading to get it going (nothing violent, mind you!). When I went on tour to Asia it worked like a dream – no fuss whatsoever. In Chicago I have to take it to a repairman to get it moving. I went to California not long ago, and it worked there too. I have no idea what is up with that, but there you have it. The mouthpipe has been moved up a little. This made no quantifiable change to the playing characteristics of the horn. All slides are easily reachable, and have plenty of pull. I have had all upward slides aligned. With proper lubrication they really move.

There are a few things about this horn that really stand out to me. The intonation on this horn is awesome. It has really wide slots across the whole register of the instrument. The result is that you can put any given note just about anywhere you want it and you will not pay for it in tone quality. In the wrong hands this is a disaster. In the right hands it is a force to be reckoned with. Personally, I find this trait very desirable. Like many other large CC tubas, the G at the bottom of the staff likes to bit a bit low – but this is only an issue if you aren’t paying attention, since it can be played in tune with minimal effort. Sometimes I have used 1+3 on that note if I was unsure about it for one reason or another. On occasion I have used 1+5 for Eb just below the staff, but that is more for tone color than intonation.

Another selling point for me is the general ease of playing this instrument offers. It is very easy to play musically with this horn. This was immediately apparent to me. In fact, I have used this horn in a variety of settings very well. Obviously a big tuba is at home in large ensembles, but I have also used this tuba in brass quintet, trombone quartet (playing 4th) and as a solo vehicle with great success. The sound quality is some how just so pliable. Oh, and yeah, it has that York sound. An observation that has been brought to me now and again is that the low register has an almost string-bass like sound to it, and for this reason, I always felt that this tuba really shone in orchestra. I suppose that in not a surprise.

Ironically, rather than going with a smaller CC, Tayler purchased a Nirschl York copy soon after selling his York.

I hope that this information is helpful for those curious about this York tuba.

[pjv]

http://kanstul.com/category.php?categor ... roundBrass" target="_blank" target="_blank

4th (&5th) paragraph

-Pat