Question for Community Players

[Heavy_Metal]

For those who say that since I'm not a professional musician I should have only one tuba- you're welcome to make me an offer for the ones you don't think I should have!

[bort]

I think it depends on the group.

Some groups are more for fun and honking on the instrument once a week. Whatever you show up with, you show up with.

Other groups are more serious, and when you show up one week with a different horn, it messes with the rest of the section (e.g., all of a sudden there's a bell-front tuba, how do you blend the section with that?). I've even seen people asked to not bring a certain instrument back again.

Most groups are somewhere in-between, and most of the equipment changes are not noticeable to most of the band. But within the section, communication and expectations are a good thing. To relate back to my personal example, it worked great for me to play my small F tuba as 1 of 7 tubas in the section. It worked terrible for me to be the ONLY tuba player with my small F at an outdoor concert.

[MaryAnn]

I used my Miraphone 184 CC for quintet and the Eb part in brass band. I used my MW 182 F in TE quartet and on the low parts in a large horn ensemble.

[roughrider]

To the OP (long post, sorry)...

I drive a Jeep Wrangler. It is my love and my hobby. I work on it. That is the "hobby" part. Driving in places like Moab, Utah or on the Rubicon Trail in California are things I want to one day do with my jeep. I love to drive on dirt roads, trails through the woods, through broken ground and in the rocks. That is the "fun" part.

I play tuba for a living. My horns are what I use to pay my bills and feed myself.

I think that tools/toys used by someone who has a passion for them (or a need) are approached in a similar manner.

If you are a pro auto mechanic you usually own or use the best tools you can afford because you beat on them non-stop and expose them to much more stress and abuse than most hobbiest or shadetree mechanics ever will. Nicer tools are also much easier to use, more efficient, and more comfortable that cheaply made ones. They most definitely are more safe from fracturing and sending bits into your face or eyes.

Those ridiculously expensive Snap-On and Matco tools and those uber-nice, uber-costly rolling tool chests that line the walls of a pro garage are purchased usually because the owner has learned that the nice looking but much cheaper ones will eventually fail, costing them time and money. The casters or handles are not up to constant rolling or pulling with the hundreds of pounds of tools in them. The drawer rollers give out. The welds on the bottom of things break. The paint chips easily, permitting rust. They either break or end up making the shop look old and dirty to customers because they end up rusted and bent. So they purchase those $5000 tool chests and carts.

Because these super-costly tools tend to break less often, are more comfortable or physically efficient to use, the carts and boxes are of a much more durable construction, they are more fun to use, too. It is more of a pleasure to use really well made tools.

Therefore, many, many home mechanics buy the best tools they can afford. They buy the specialty tools and get good ones. They get the nicer, but costly boxes and carts. Because they respect pro mechanics and see what they use at work and understand why they use them.

Over time they try to get all their basic hand and power tools to be of a high quality, frequently getting the exact same ones used by the pro mechanics.

They are nicer and easier to use. They do not tend to fracture or explode in your face. They work better in general.

Do they need them? Are those Harbor Freight tools all they really NEED to get their home repairs done right? Do they need a Matco rolling tool box?

No. But if you appreciate well made things, have used bad tools enough to see why they are bad, and have the time and money to research and assemble a collection of really good tools: why not?

Tubas are the same way. If you have played a tuba that is just right for certain types of music or ensembles or for standing gigs or whatever, going back to your do-it-all tuba is frequently disappointing in a lot of settings. You find yourself thinking, "I wish I had one of those 3/4 Weril tubas for this standing gig," or, "This Conn BAT is just too large for this brass quintet. It is like a quartet over a solo tuba, and that just ain't right!"

Most people just shrug their shoulders and think, "they cost an arm and a leg, so my Miraphone 186 is 'good enough' for me."

However, some guys just like tubas. They love playing them, too, to be sure. But the dig on tubas in general and want to own "a few" for special types of sounds or types of groups or gigs. They get a second tuba that sounds different from the other tuba. They start to see a difference in how the two work in the same situations and begin to draw lines between them and assigning them more or less permanently to certain roles.

Just like the pros they see at concerts on in lessons, they appreciate the good stuff.

Or they find that they like certain brands or keys or build periods. Some guys do not play that well and do not care that their 100 year old York with the exquisite engraving and pretty tone cannot be played in tune easily. They are not good enough to play well in tune so the shortcomings do not bug them. Some are good enough to overcome the flaws and band away at an inferior tuba because the LOVE the tone they get on it.

Back to my jeep: I own some crappy tools that are fine for what I do. I also own some very costly tools because when I used the craptastic one I used to own I decided that I was tired of struggling with it. I also hate buying things twice when I could have bought it once for a bit more money, initially.

My jeep is my hobby and I have some crap gear on it, but I also have some off-the-hook rugged stuff that I will never tax to its limits. I have replaced a lot of stock stuff that, while *probably* they will not fail on me when I am out in the woods or the rocks, if I have the time and money, why not upgrade when it is time to replace? Sure, it costs me more, but the quality is wonderful, the strength is amazing, and I feel more safe when on the trail. After all, who likes snapping off an axle shaft on the trail? I have done so four times. The first time I did not understand how my axle was assembled, and I could not drive home. I had to be trailered out of the woods and home. That cost me ten times what a pair of higher quality axle shafts would have cost me.

Ten. Times. The. Expense.

So I like really rugged stuff on my rig now. I replace everything with either expensive OEM stuff from the dealer or upgrade with solid, proven and popular parts. I do my research obsessively because this is my hobby.

Do I need a lot of the stuff I have on my jeep? No.

But I want it.

What is wrong with wanting a really nice jeep?

What is wring with wanting really nice tools?

What is wring with owning all the tubas you want?

You do not understand the why others choose to own "in excess of tubas" (sic).

... it doesn't add up to own in excess of tubas because you won't play them all.

So *you* do not think that having tubas that you rarely play or even *never* play "adds up" while *I* do not understand your need to ask this question. Why do you need to know this?

Regardless, the answer, very simply, is that they own these tubas because they WANT to own them. They love tubas. It is their hobby, their avocation. My jeep is my hobby, my avocation. I have an upgraded tie rod because I bent the stock one. I did not wish to replace it. I wanted to never bend it again, since it trashed my tires driving it home with it bent; so I upgraded it. I may never again get in a situation where I could bend my tie rod, but if I do, it now will take a MUCH more severe hit to bend it. I did not *need* it. I simply wanted it. And it looks cooler, too. HAHAHA!!!

Cheers!

AMEN!!!

[sloan]

It's self indulgent for a "community player" to have more than one horn.
A medium sized(4/4) horn, BB,C, Eb- doesn't matter.
Of course if you march, or play standing a sousaphone or a smaller horn could be added to the arsenal.
The tool(s) must be suited to the job you do

My, my, such prescriptive language. May I inquire : who asked you? and : why do you
think anyone cares?

[dunelandmusic]

Different horns have different capabilities. If I'm the 3rd or 4th man in, a 186 or VMI -103 is just fine. If I'm one of two and there are 60 other musicians against us, a BAT seems more appropriate. Or if the concert is outdoors-bring some heavy metal. If you want a sweet solo, or if you are riding your bike to rehearsal, bring your Eb.

Buying tubas is like anything else-diversification, a place to store money for a rainy day. Only in this case, you can have some fun in the mean time, and if you take care of it, you or your kids get your money back later.

[chronolith]

Most of my stuff is community-level orchestras. I have three horns for it (6/4 CC, 4/4 CC, and F).

Full disclosure - I am lucky that I can indulge in my tuba fantasies and buy the tools I want so I am not really forced to choose a single horn for the job.

It all boils down to the group in combination with the rep you are playing. In my main orchestra I see a lot of variation. In the current and future seasons I am seeing Mahler, Prokofiev, Sibelius, etc as well as Berlioz, Mendelssohn, and Brahms (2nd). We have the ability to pull in loads of extra players if we need to in order to cover the scale of the works as well - so I scale my equipment accordingly.

I also play a lot of chamber music with orchestra members and so a good all around 4/4 and "orchestral" F means that I can make comfortable choices for most situations.

SO - If you are in a steady group that does not fluctuate too much and plays rep that can be universally covered with one instrument then get a solid 4/4 or 5/4 whatever works best for you and your group. But if you are in a more variable situation then you may want to gear accordingly. I suggest that you err towards simplicity though and let experience dictate your future decisions rather than speculation.

The sad truth is that for 99% of community groups, your gear choices are going to matter WAY MORE to you than to anyone else. So choose the gear that makes you happy.

[sloan]

The sad truth is that for 99% of community groups, your gear choices are going to matter WAY MORE to you than to anyone else. So choose the gear that makes you happy.

The great philosopher Ricky/Rick Nelson had something to say about this.

[Lew]

You have gotten a lot of good answers, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. At one time I had over 30 tubas. Why? Because I had a job making enough money that I could and I thought it would be fun. I decided that as much as I enjoyed them, I was tired of the upkeep on a house large enough to hold them all and wanted to downsize, so I sold all but 6. I kept a King 2341 (one piece), Besson 983 Eb, Conn fiberglass sousaphone with a brass bell, an old 3 valve Eb and 3 valve Bb and a huge helicon with a 30" bell.

When I lived in Richmond, VA I played in 2 community bands, two brass quintets and a British (style) brass band. I used the 2341 with the smaller community band, one of my "large" tubas with the large band (about 100 members), an Eb with the quintets and the brass band. I picked up Eb a number of years ago as a challenge and for the fun of it. For "large" tubas I had a King 1291 (with rotary valves), a Martin Monster, and a Conn 22J (side action 20J). I used different ones just for variety. I probably could have gotten by with just the 2341, but the Eb worked much better for the quintets and the brass band needed an Eb player.

I used to play in several Tuba Christmases each year, and would bring a helicon or some other interesting antique horn to each. Now I generally bring my Besson Eb because I think the tuba 1 parts sound better on it.

I could get by with one tuba for the playing I do now. I am in one community band and use the King 2341 for the Summer season and the Besson 983 for the Winter. The only reason to alternate is because I like an opportunity to play both. I use the sousaphone when I go back to my college reunions to play in the alumni band, which I do more than every 5 years. I could borrow a sousaphone from the school for this, but the horns they have to borrow are in sad shape. I used to have a Conn 28K and a Conn 40K that I would use for alumni band and various Tuba Christmases, but as I got older I found that they were too much for me to carry.

In other words, for most community band players there may not be a need to have more than one horn, but if someone enjoys some variety, why not?

[Minkrott]

I play in community band and have 4 tubas. I started Tuba Christmas with a 36k Sousaphone, and joined community band with a Yamaha 104. The other two tuba players had 4/4 instruments, so I picked up a MW 25 that I found on Tubenet. I enjoy fix up projects, so I have owned 9 tubas in the last 3 years including a MW 186, Jinbao 3/4 CC, and B&S 101. I like fixing things as well as playing, so I will continue to do both at an amateur level. We had an outdoor concert tonight, and I am still on cloud 9 after playing my MW 20. Like Heavy Metal, I could part with the others for the right offer

[Sandlapper]

During the season, I play in a community bands in two different towns. I have a 2341 new style which I dearly love and is probably all the horn I need. I primarily play that horn in the town I live in, but the other band I car pool to and if three or four of us ride together and take turns driving, I would have to drive by myself half the time because the 2341 won't fit into two car trunks and quite frankly I'm not sure I want to put the 2341in a car trunk in the first place. The bell is way too wide. So I got an old 186 from Dan Schultz with both the upright and recording bell. The out of town band plays two of its concerts in the park, no band shell, and a Christmas tree lighting ceremony annually and the bell front horn works great for all of those. To keep my chops up, I also play in a summer band that is just a delight, two rehearsals and 10 concerts in nursing homes. It is also a car pool experience, and often we are packed in to a corner of a room so the 186 seems to work better there, partly because there is usually not enough room to spin the 2341 to get that water that accumulates above the valves out easily.

Having played beat up old horns in high school and college, usually the same horn year after year, I enjoy both horns and having a choice of which to play. Most of the time its a 50 /50 use. Either one could do all I need to do.

[MackBrass]

For those who say that since I'm not a professional musician I should have only one tuba- you're welcome to make me an offer for the ones you don't think I should have!

eeFF that thought process, you buy what makes you feel happy, if that one tuba or ten tubas who cares. Tubas and other instruments are collectable just like coins, cars and dolls. We just like tubas. You can play them, trade them, look at them and appreciate they are works of art and most of all you have a hobby to keep your mind sharp as you get into the older years of life. Keeping the brain stimulated is the key and music is the avenue to turn the key on and off as needed.

My turn of the century giant monster cerveny helicon in f is a horn that I want to use more for therapy. This the coolest horn I ever seen and feel honored to be its current custodian.

[Wyvern]

During the 1990's I played in a variety of groups from Symphony Orchestra to, wind band, brass band and brass quintet, everything on Besson Sovereign 981. Then around 2003 my interest in tubas increased reading TubeNet and I decided to get a CC tuba for orchestra (initially a PT6) - which with a good management job and being single at that time led to building up quite a collection, with at one time 8 tubas (Neptune, PT-20, PT-15, 2040/5, PT-3, Cerveny 701, Besson 981 and old Haag Eb).

Now I only have one personal tuba, my unique gold brass Neptune - but mostly play various Wessex tubas. I like to try all of them out (road-test) which leads to quite a variety, including even cimbasso in Concert Band concert recently. Next I want to lean to play ophicleide competently.

So my experience is one can manage with one tuba*, but it is a lot of fun to have several, and if you have the money, go for what gives you pleasure.

* I do sometime think that musically it may be better to become really proficient on one tuba, rather than keep swapping around, particularly playing in multiple different keys. I was probably playing at my best before I started collecting, concentrating all practice on just one tuba.

[Antontuba]

Besson 981 for orchestra and community band.

Adam

[ghmerrill]

Just curious. I never take it upon myself to 'take it up' or 'take it down' an octave. In a community band setting (where you are not the soloist) it make more sense to 'play the ink'. Even if the parts are written divisi... who plays what should be at the discretion of the section leader or director. ...

There's another issue here -- particularly in a community band. If you've only got two or three tubas, and one of those keeps switching what part he plays (often from one run-through to another), not only does the sound of the ensemble change each time a piece is played, but ...

What exactly are the other players supposed to do? Particularly if you realize that for any given rehearsal or performance one (or even two) of them may not be able to show up for one reason or another? How do you ensure that the parts are covered appropriately on a regular and dependable basis? It's one thing to take the approach that each player should be able to play each of the parts reliably (definitely not a bad idea), but to have one or more players randomly and arbitrarily switching as the mood moves him/her gets both weird and frustrating.

I guess if you have six or eight tubas and a couple of players play whatever line they like from one time to the next, it may not matter.

[Musical_Eagle]

Wow. I didn't expect this thread to go this big. I was gone on a mission trip all of last trip and I didn't think it would get many views. Thank you all for your advice and answers on this matter and I can see it clearly now on how some things work for having a large tuba collection.

What I meant by an excess of tubas, is like 6 or more, not 2-3. My tuba owning goal would probably be to add a bass tuba to a contrabass so I can do Eb parts in brass band with greater ease.

[sloan]

I think it is generally accepted that "an excess of tubas" means "twice as many as I own".

[ScottM]

I play a PT-20 currently in the community band. I think it sounds good and do get some compliments, including from the conductor. I played a Mirafone 184 for years and really liked it but wanted a bigger sound so got the PT used. It had been barely played so was like new. I still use the Mirafone for quintet or solos. Both are CC's. I just bought a Conn 14J eflat as I wanted to try to learn that horn. I could get by with either CC tuba but it is nice to match the tool to the job.
ScottM

[gillish]

I don't play classical, I play Balkan, New Orleans jazz, and Klezmer, so I have two horns for different jobs. I have my sousaphone (which I use for most gigs) and a concert tuba for the rare gigs where bass-in-your-face is not desired.

[chronolith]

Perhaps the thread should split off into the various community group types (band, orchestra, etc).

Given that I would suggest that the less tuba players you have in your group, the more options you are likely to need.