Flat pipe organs?

[Craig Garner]

Just curious.........my quintet plays a number of jobs with pipe organs that are flat. Some, VERY flat. One in particular is almost a half step flat! So flat, I have to pull the slide on my 40 year old Piggy to the very end. I need a Velcro strap to keep it from falling out (and, yes, I have considered pushing the slide all the way in and transposing...but, geez!!). I just had a musician friend build me a lead pipe extension, so hopefully I won't need to pull the slide out so far. (the rest of the quintet is also way out, but not to the edge like I am)

Curious....has anyone else ever had this problem, that is, not enough tuning slide? Or is it just me and/or my horn? If you aren't sure, please just blame me....I like my horn.

[ppalan]

I'm not an expert but it sounds to me like the organ in this church is in serious need of tuning. One teaching gig I had was at a school that had a chapel with a huge pipe organ. One of my jobs was to make sure the organ tuner was scheduled at least twice a year for tuning and other maintenance. Maybe a diplomatic suggestion to the organist or music minister is in order. One of the members of this board is in the organ building business. Maybe he'll chime in with his expertise.
Pete

[Craig Garner]

I'm no expert in organs either, but some of these New England organs are quite old. And while the cost of routine maintenance is one thing, the cost of retuning a large pipe organ, especially one that is far from 440, is said to be considerable.

[WC8KCY]

As an organist, I can tell you that keeping a pipe organ perfectly in tune is an impossibility. The pipes used to build an organ are constructed of many different types of metals and woods, each with its own unique rate of thermal expansion and contraction. Unless the organ is being played at the same temperature at which it was tuned, it's gonna be off. A certain limited out-of-tuneness resulting in slowly undulating "beats" is a desirable characteristic of a pipe organ anyway--in fact, the Celeste stops are deliberately tuned flat relative to the rest of the organ to induce this sonic effect.

Some old pipe organs, as with some old pianos, were built to lower pitch standards than are used today and simply cannot be brought up to A=440. Even when it is possible, the costs involved may not be justifiable.

I used to run out of tuning slide when playing a YBB-641 in a local college ensemble. I simply used my sousaphone's tuning bits between the mouthpiece and the receiver to lower its pitch--and it was more comfortable to play, to boot.

[Craig Garner]

I simply used my sousaphone's tuning bits between the mouthpiece and the receiver to lower its pitch

Great info!! Just what I was looking for. Thanks.

[Highams]

The 1912 Norman & Beard organ I play with at St. Mary's Slough (Berkshire, UK) was built (and still remains) at Old French Diapason pitch where A= circa 432 depending on temperature.

Whilst most euphs I have can get down to this pitch it obviously rules out use with visiting orchestras.

CB
http://www.euphonium.webspace.virginmed ... .htm#organ" target="_blank

[Heavy_Metal]

The only organs I've played with that were consistently in-tune were Allen digitals. But despite the intonation issues, I'd much rather play in a place with a good pipe organ. An electronic organ of whatever type can't make you "feel" the sound the way a pipe organ can.

BTW Craig, your brass/organ arrangement of "Salvation is Created" went over VERY well.

[SplatterTone]

What happens to a pipe organ's pitch if the air supply is leaky?

Assuming the leak is at a place where it would not be heard to the point of distraction, then the pitch would vary with the number of stops pulled and the size of the chord played.

In case you're wondering, I was an organist in Lutheran and Presbyterian churches for 27 years.

[iiipopes]

The only organs I've played with that were consistently in-tune were Allen digitals.

Allen organs are designed and built intentionally out of tune. Don't believe me? LIsten to any stop on an Allen holding four octaves at a time.

I don't know if it is still out there, but Allen actually advertised about stretching the octaves to give a more "alive" tone at one point.

[timothy42b]

What happens to a pipe organ's pitch if the air supply is leaky?

I've picked up organ pipes before, blown through them, and have been able to significantly cause the pitch to sag by blowing slower/less air through them.

Exactly correct, just like any wind instrument. Blow harder (increase wind pressure) and the pitch and volume go up. .

But that isn't really true, is it? Sure, if your air is below a minimum level bad things happen, and if you really overblow you can jump an octave. But in the playing range the pitch is mostly from the length of the instrument. With wind instruments or organs.

I used to play organ at a church with one of those little consort organs with the blower in the seat. There wasn't much of an air flow but i never got it to sag.

[Craig Garner]

If an organ has poor wind supply, the pitch will sag in large registrations.

Crap! Really?? The only thing we play with this organ is music with large registrations. That could be the problem.

Maybe I should probably consider arranging some Faure, instead??

I really like the souzy tuning-bit suggestion. That'll work like a charm.

[Heavy_Metal]

The only organs I've played with that were consistently in-tune were Allen digitals.

Allen organs are designed and built intentionally out of tune. Don't believe me? LIsten to any stop on an Allen holding four octaves at a time.

I don't know if it is still out there, but Allen actually advertised about stretching the octaves to give a more "alive" tone at one point.

Never heard that done on an Allen. Some of the ones I've heard sound almost too precise.

I can compare this to music recorded with a drum machine as opposed to having real human drummers. Yes, the electronic unit is more precise, but it bypasses the interaction between the musicians which IMHO is one thing that makes a great performance. There are some things you just can't do with software.

[Radar]

I play with a pipe organ built in the 1960s at our church and we do have to adjust to the organ because of temperature differences in the sanctuary. There can be a fair amount of tuning variation but it's always been within the adjustable range of the horns tuning slide in our case. I know that we tune ours regularly, but still some variation from A440 is to be expected. The tuning bit idea for playing with a really flat organ is probably your best bet as long as the rest of the ensemble can adjust as well.

[Eric B]

And then there is the story of behemoth organ at Christ’s Cathedral (formerly Crystal Cathedral) of Garden Grove, CA. It can get over a half step out of tune with itself depending upon if the sun is rising or setting. One chamber can get significantly warmer than the others. I suppose the organist has to check the weather forecast to determine which pipes will be played on Sunday! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Cathedral_organ

[Heavy_Metal]

Wow.

Maybe they need a good window tinting company.........