Valve oil on stainless steel pistons

[PaulMaybery]

I've recently acquired a set of 2 tubas. F and CC, both with stainless steel pistons. The tolerances are rather close and the compression is great. When oiled they are extremely smooth, quiet and fast, which I believe is due to the light weight of the stainless steel. The valve casings as far as I can tell are brass.

Over the past year I have tried just about every oil on the market, both synthetic and petroleum based. Hetman has been my favorite.

Here's the problem: I usually play between 2 to 5 hours daily then try to find a day to take off for recovery. After a day off, I come back and the valves are seized and require some persuasion to break free. I'm afraid that daily banging the valves free will eventually cause some distortion in the piston and casing. In addition, after a week or so, a "white" scum begins building up around the top edge of the piston.

The tubas are kept upright in a stand when not in use to keep water from running back from the internal workings of the horn and I do clean the valves about twice a month with warm water and a simple dish detergent.

My question: Should this be normal for close fitting stainless valves or is there some freaky chemistry involved here between certain lubricants, brass and stainless?

I have never experienced this on my older horns - piston and rotary. Perhaps the tolerance has something to do with it. I'm just not understanding things.

I would love to hear from someone who may have a bit of a professional/scientific handle on this.

[bisontuba]

Hi Paul-
I have stopped using Hetman's grease and rotor/slide oil for exactly the same reasons as you describe--a build up of a white/yellow scum/crud on top of the pistons each week. Despite cleaning the valves and casings, & having them ultra sound cleaned on a regular basis, the crud continued. I wasn't sure if it was just me or whatever. I never had such problems in the past--might they -Hetman- have changed their formula?
I am now using SuperSlick tuning slide grease and their valve/rotor oil--works great, no build up of any kind.
Take Care-
Mark

[imperialbari]

What about oiling the pistons at the end of every practice session?

Klaus

[PaulMaybery]

Hi Mark.
Hey, thanks for the tip. Will definitely give it a try. I used the BAT all summer with the Medalist Band here in Minnesota. Enormous sound with a presence that is unbelievable. Also used the F on Franck d minor. Both horns (Big Mouth Brass) are fantastic. Those valves, aside from the lubrication issue are the smoothest, quickest and quietest that I have ever experienced and the low range is awesome on both of them.
Best wishes
Paul.

[bisontuba]

Paul-
Nice group of horns !!
Mark

[dwerden]

I'm not an expert on this, but my euphoniums have had stainless steel for the last 24 years. I settled many years ago on Blue Juice and it does a great job.

I have had problems with synthetics, which I attribute to moisture. I think those oils and water don't play nicely together, and I too was experiencing a white film when the valves got slow.

[PaulMaybery]

Thanks Dave.
Will give that a try too, I have a bottle on the shelf. I suppose many of us are seduced into the synthetics. I once had a bottle of Dave Braun's TECH OiI. It seemed to work fine on my Besson Sovereigh Euph. l but it is long gone and I can't seen to find his contact info. Other synthetics seem to wash off with water and then dry. Dave seemed to address the water issue in his formula.

[iiipopes]

A brand that has fallen out of favor, but has served me well since I started playing brass over forty years ago: Roche-Thomas. It is a conventional oil that does not have any of the drawbacks that others have, especially Hetmans.

I have NEVER had any problem with sludge, gunk, incompatibility with any tuning slide lubricant, or frozen valves EVER, and I have the best valve performance you can get. I have used it on literally hundreds of horns from 5th grade trumpet onward, both on piston valves and down the leadpipe to seal rotors when they dry out from lack of use, and it always performs, does not dilute down, and lasts as long or longer than any other valve oil. Period.

[J.c. Sherman]

Have a repair-person use a mild acidic chemical to dissolve the thin coating of lime away...or not.

(Even if they don't have a tub of chemical big enough for a tuba, they can clarinet-swab the acid into the casings and rinse it away with a garden hose.)

OK...
You're looking for a way to not take it to a shop:
Just oil the valves AFTER you've finished playing.

This... or oil before you start with Al Cass. Truly, if you expect 5 hours out of a single oiling, You're... "optimistic".

[Sandlapper]

Al Cass was too thin for my 2341 and resulted in a fuzzy sound with less than optimal seal between the valves and casings. On the advice of Instrument Doc in Charleston I went to Hetman's #3 which gave a noticeable immediate improvement to the horn's sound. With the Hetman's oil, water emptied from the horn definitely has a thin milky look. Guy on the next stand used Blue Juice and I've thought about trying it, but because of the loose valve fit and since my horn definitely does better with a thicker oil and I don't want to go the do it yourself with STP route, do they make a "thicker" version of Blue Juice?

[ScottM]

I use Blue Juice on my PT20 and don't have any issues with the valves.
ScottM

[menroth]

I also have some issues with number two. Hetman's number two, that is. Actually, all Hetman's oils. Don't get me wrong, I like them as lubricants and plan to empty the bottles I have (a stash of number 2, 11, 14 & 15 for various uses and different horns, trombones etc.). I have read on this forum that it might be reason to try some other brand if one has this problem, for instance Yamaha syntetic oils, so that's what I plan to do.

No trouble inside the valve casings - but white gunk all over the inside of the horn(s). On the picture, about two weeks of daily practise since last wash. Bon appetit, guys!

[bisontuba]

I also have some issues with number two. Hetman's number two, that is. Actually, all Hetman's oils. Don't get me wrong, I like them as lubricants and plan to empty the bottles I have (a stash of number 2, 11, 14 & 15 for various uses and different horns, trombones etc.). I have read on this forum that it might be reason to try some other brand if one has this problem, for instance Yamaha syntetic oils, so that's what I plan to do.

No trouble inside the valve casings - but white gunk all over the inside of the horn(s). On the picture, about two weeks of daily practise since last wash. Bon appetit, guys!

Hi-
Yup, that's the 'Hetman's gunk'.....
Mark

[PaulMaybery]

First off, thanks to those who offered very fine input on this thread. Perspective is always helpful.
Special thanks for the link to Dave Braun and Tech Oil. I had used some many years ago and lost Dave's contact information.

For about the past 2 weeks I have been using Tech Oil. Results have so far been very favorable in that there is no drying out between playing sessions. Furthermore, upon removing the valves, I have noticed that the lubrication slick is still there and the valves continue to be smooth and somewhat quieter than with the many other oils I have tried. Dave mentions that one could expect to go several weeks between oiling. I know that sounds optimistic, but I am now beginning week 3 with the initial oiling. While it is pricey at 12 bucks a bottle, it does seem to do the job.

Before I applied the Tech Oil, I needed to clean the valves. A nasty mess of scum and a rather serious build up of corrosion. Traditional oils let me down by allowing water to dissolve or breakdown the lubrication and the protection to the metal. I have stainless pistons with brass casings. The pistons were fine but the casings had a considerable build up of hardened corrosion and a scale-like deposit. I usually clean the valves about once a month. However I was away from the f tuba for about 5 weeks. When I came back they were in a serious mess and all 4 pistons were totally seized.

From what I understand from Dave Braun is that his Tech Oil actually keeps water from migrating down the sides of the pistons and casings. When using tradtional oils, petroleum or synthetic I would often need to oil several times a day. Very time consuming.

The verdict is still out, but I have a gut feeling that I may be a Tech Oil convert. Time will tell. I personally know others that are convinced it is the best.

Paul (who generally needs to explore every possibility before he can let it go) Maybery

[J.c. Sherman]

Al Cass has always been awesome on my stainless pistons.

[Toobist]

I also have some issues with number two. Hetman's number two, that is. Actually, all Hetman's oils. Don't get me wrong, I like them as lubricants and plan to empty the bottles I have (a stash of number 2, 11, 14 & 15 for various uses and different horns, trombones etc.). I have read on this forum that it might be reason to try some other brand if one has this problem, for instance Yamaha syntetic oils, so that's what I plan to do.

No trouble inside the valve casings - but white gunk all over the inside of the horn(s). On the picture, about two weeks of daily practise since last wash. Bon appetit, guys!

Hi-
Yup, that's the 'Hetman's gunk'.....
Mark

I get that gunk too... I totally thought it was me, my lunch(es), or maybe some residual Chopsaver/lip balm (thought I seldomly use it)... Hm... Interesting. I haven't seen it collect after I started using Yamaha synthetic on my valves and and basic lanolin on the slides.

[PaulMaybery]

Okay, it's been almost 4 weeks since trying Tech Oil. I admit I was not sure if it would hold up and I have not added another oiling as of yet. Hours and hours of playing and lots of condensation going through the horn, but the valves have not calcified, stuck or otherwise been anything but smooth and quick. Another perk, at least for me, is that there has been no build of up sludge, just a clean and still well-lubricated surface on the valves and casings. I used all the recommended lubricants mentioned on this post at one time or another, and this is the ONLY one that has given me the results I had hoped for. For matters of "horn hygiene" I do plan to clean things shortly, but someone had mentioned to me that it lasted over a month for them on a cornet, and while I wanted to believe them, I had to find out for myself.

[Rick F]

That picture shared above of a 2nd valve slide looks similar to my slide. Even with Yamaha synthetic I started getting that buildup in my M5050. It wasn't as much buildup as with Hetmans, but there still was buildup. Enough buildup that I noticed a difference in tone between 1-2 fingering and 3 fingering.

Two weeks ago I switched to Blue Juice. So far it's working well for me, but it's only been two weeks.

[Rick F]

Update...

I've been using Blue Juice now for three weeks. It's been working fine with good valve action (no staining of SS valves either). Last week I took out my valves to clean them like I normally do each month. I wiped them down and inserted a "Brass Saver" lead-pipe brush into the valve casings and valve ports. I was happy to see no buildup of yellow stuff. There is a chemical smell when using the Blue Juice, but thankfully I don't smell it while playing.

[iiipopes]

I also have some issues with number two. Hetman's number two, that is. Actually, all Hetman's oils. Don't get me wrong, I like them as lubricants and plan to empty the bottles I have (a stash of number 2, 11, 14 & 15 for various uses and different horns, trombones etc.). I have read on this forum that it might be reason to try some other brand if one has this problem, for instance Yamaha syntetic oils, so that's what I plan to do.

No trouble inside the valve casings - but white gunk all over the inside of the horn(s). On the picture, about two weeks of daily practise since last wash. Bon appetit, guys!

Perfect photographic evidence as to why Hetmans should never be used on anything.