Ultrasonic cleaning problems

[mbeastep]

With my orchestra season about to begin, I took my PT-6P for an ultrasonic cleaning. Instead of playing better, suddenly there were some serious problems. All of the first valve and fourth valve notes were weak and uncentered, with D in the staff being especially bad. There is an audible buzz and an observation from listeners that the energy of the note seems to be taken up in large part by different parts of the horn rather than by the air column. Open notes and those played with valves 2 and 3 are okay. The alignment seems to be good, both on the pistons and the rotor. The valves are in the right order. Some leftover gunk was found in the leadpipe, but once it was gone the problem remained. We're looking for leaks. My repairman has suggested the possibility that the cleaning removed some of my personal slime from the interior of the instrument that was beneficial, and that possibly it would improve through playing. To shorten this process he suggested coating the interior with oil to see if anything changed. The weakness of this strategy is that I have had the horn since it was new in 2000 and it never played like this.

I gather that ultrasonic cleaning can cause weak areas to give way, and that solder joints can be susceptible. So far we haven't discovered a smoking gun, though.

I would be glad to hear of any experiences of members of this community that might throw some light on this problem.

m b eastep
Calgary

[Matt Walters]

I had a guy bring in his Nirschl York CC for some patches on the valve casing knuckles after ultrasonic cleaning from some other shop blew holes in his horn. You might even have some small holes in the valve ports. That is very thin material. You will need to do a lot of close looking. What about different felts, too?

[Steve Marcus]

Does this mean that chem cleaning is more safe than ultrasonic cleaning?

Is the efficacy of either method a factor of how much monitoring and experience the tech exercises when cleaning the horn?

[ASTuba]

Does this mean that chem cleaning is more safe than ultrasonic cleaning?

Is the efficacy of either method a factor of how much monitoring and experience the tech exercises when cleaning the horn?

I don't know if it is safer or not, but people just need to be smart when using an ultrasonic cleaner. These cleaners have thermostats, power controls, and other variables that allow you to make sure you don't damage an instrument. Most technicians think cleaning is a "set it and forget it" operation, but you must take the time to make sure that the settings are to a level that will not damage an instrument.

[iiipopes]

I concur on getting a new tech. On the old Besson 3-valve comp I used to have, over time the solder joints deteriorated. As each one would come apart, my tech would resolder it, until we finally went through almost the entire horn. Every time he fixed one, intonation and tone improved.

I'm not saying your tuba has to be completely disassembled and resoldered, but there has to be some bad solder joints causing leaks somewhere.

One elementary issue: have you checked the corks in the water keys?

[mbeastep]

One elementary issue: have you checked the corks in the water keys?[/quote]


Yes, they seal well. Thanks for the thought.

mbe

[bort]

Another dumb thing to check -- are valves 1 and 4 switched? Not even sure if that makes sense on your horn, just a thought.

Honestly, I'd take it back to the same tech and say "fix it!"

[mbeastep]

Another dumb thing to check -- are valves 1 and 4 switched? Not even sure if that makes sense on your horn, just a thought.

Honestly, I'd take it back to the same tech and say "fix it!"

Since the numbers on the valves are very difficult to see, this was a possibility, but we checked it. The first valve is vented, which makes it easy to identify, but I wonder whether the vent hole in the valve could have been affected by the ultrasound so as to cause a leak.

The horn is still in the hands of the tech, who is working hard with me to find and fix the problems.

[bort]

Good to hear, on both accounts! Hope he finds it soon!

[mbeastep]

Seems to me that ultrasonic cleaning does not cause problems. It does, however, sometimes reveal problems that can very much then need to be addressed. I have a B.A.U.S.T. (big *** ultra sonic tank) at work. It gets used all day long, every day. It was designed with specific BATS in mind and was the first of its kind. It gets kept at 80ºF-85ºF with the pumps on and filters regularly replaced. It sees a lot of really high end and expensive instruments on a daily basis.

High mileage and poorly maintained over a long period of time instruments can be problematic as rot is cleaned away leaving leaks of a variety of sorts. Not cleaning the rot away only delays the inevitable. Addressing the problems sooner than later will stabilize the instrument and help preserve it for the long term. Removing the build up of organic matter to which the owner/player has become accustomed changes how the instrument plays, too.

Things I would check are, indeed, valve port linings, all solder joints in the affected circuits and slides, wear in the valve set, alignments, and possibility of loose debris through out the tuba. Something loose or floating around in one spot of an instrument can change how a certain overtone series resonates while leaving others relatively alone.

Sticking your head in the sand never solved any problem.

I plead guilty as charged. The latest indication is that the cleaning exposed an area of corrosion at the end of the leadpipe going into the valves. The effect of this was concealed by the same slime that caused it until the slime was removed, leaving a rough surface and a leak. Now if I can just borrow a horn to use while this one gets repaired ...

Thanks all for the advice.

mbeastep

[bort]

Any luck over the last few days?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I once cleaned out my 983 with a garden hose. When I was done, the notes played with the 4th valve, had a horribly unfocused sound! Upon closer inspection, I found a paper thin 3' x 3" sheet of silver, flapping around in the tubing area.

Apparently, Besson was in such a rush to silver plate the horn, they never stopped up the tubing, so they silver plated the interior or the tubing, as well as the exterior!

Don't know if this helps, but I was amazed when I found the problem in my horn!

[mbeastep]

Any luck over the last few days?

There is definitely corrosion in both the first and fourth valve casings. Having found no other obvious leaks or blockages, this would seem to be causing the playing problems. Resurfacing of the casings will require shipping elsewhere, and Dan Oberloh has agreed to look into it.

Meanwhile a white knight has stepped out of the TubeNet forest and offered to make a professional quality horn available to me. I will play the first show or two on E-flat tuba and with luck I will be able to spend a good amount of time getting comfortable on the borrowed horn before we start playing heavier shows. I feel very fortunate.

mbeastep

[bobd0]

The wife and I love to cook. We love non-stick but we don't love those non-stick chemicals flaking and leeching into our food. So, I bought a set of inexpensive cast iron pans recently because cast iron aficionados swear that the best non-stick cooking surface on earth is a well-seasoned cast iron skillet.

When my new cast iron skillets arrived they were "pre-seasoned" but near bare metal so I seasoned them again by coating them with a thin layer of fat (usually Crisco unless you have pure lard available) then placing the skillets in the oven, upside-down, at high temperature for an hour or so. After the skillets cool down in the closed oven, they come out with a nice catalyzed layer of long chain fat polymers, at least this is how I've read it works. And it does work. Then, the seasoned layer builds up with continued use and proper care. And it is indeed the best non-stick surface I've ever cooked on.

Among the many things you don't want to do to a seasoned cast iron skillet are; cooking acidic ingredients in it like tomatoes, citrus, wine sauces, or deglazing with wine or other alcohol, or washing them with harsh detergent. These all remove the seasoning layer and you have to start from scratch, re-seasoning the skillets, or they are basically useless for cooking.

This all might sound off-topic but here's my point. I believe all metals go through a seasoning process through reaction with their environment and activities involved in their intended use. Brass tarnishes and builds a beautiful (some believe, including me) patina. Condensation, saliva, oils, etc., would also contribute to the brass instrument "seasoning" process. Removing the seasoning layer from a cast iron pan harms its performance. Removing the seasoning layer from brass instruments with harsh chemicals or high frequency vibrations might damage their performance as well. I don't know for sure. But I'll clean and lubricate my brass instruments at home to be on the safe side.

Take your horn outside on a beautiful, sunny day, hook up the garden hose, pour in some mild detergent, scrub well with a cleaning snake, and reverse flush. Pour 91% isopropyl alcohol through the main body and slides if you like. Dry well, lubricate, polish, and play.

Nothing cooks like a clean, well-seasoned cast iron skillet. And nothing plays like a clean, well seasoned brass instrument.

[mbeastep]

An interesting take. The problem remains that my particular "patina" seems to want to eat the horn. Maybe I should try coating the inside with Crisco!

As far as bathing in the yard, we do get a short season of suitable weather here in Alberta. It's even nice right now, though on Sept. 11 we got 9 inches of snow--very rough on the still fully-leafed trees. The awkwardness of bathing the horn in a smallish bath tub during the remaining 8-9 months of cold weather no doubt influences me to procrastinate on the cleaning process.

mbe

[bobd0]

Alberta is beautiful but you could probably cryo your horn out there in winter.

With cast iron, any rust has to be removed before seasoning. Even then, they can sometimes flash rust in the time it takes between getting down to a bare metal surface, drying then coating them with Crisco. I've read that you can use white vinegar to remove flash rust.

Can tarnish eat your horn? Brass tarnishes but it's non-ferrous so it can't technically rust like ferrous metals but I suppose oxidation is oxidation. And whether or not Crisco would work on a tarnished surface -- the other part of the seasoning process involves putting your Crisco coated cast iron skillet in a 450 F oven for an hour! That would be one hot tuba!

[joh_tuba]

I love cast iron but it's not a very good metaphor for maintaining a tuba UNLESS you maintain cast iron by constantly soaking it in corrosive chemicals(saliva) and letting it rust.

The EXTREMELY rare(nonexistent) person that oils the first few feet(receiver to tuning slide) both before and after every time they play might avoid a need for a chemical bath IF they are also VERY thorough in cleaning all the food particulate, oil that turns gummy, and the crunchy particulate that accumulates when oils dry out.. preferably every six months but at least every couple years. The only way to avoid corrosion is to maintain a constant oil film over the brass to protect it from reacting with the air and your saliva. If you are using a petroleum based oil that evaporates quickly you need to oil much more frequently than you think to maintain this protective barrier.

The chemicals used by my most repair shops are a strong de-greaser and mild acid solution. It's nothing crazy and does nothing structurally to the brass unless left for a LOONG time. Also, once corrosion starts it doesn't go away(it's a bit like cancer) unless you remove it. Soap and water won't do that. Avoiding a chemical bath because you feel that maintaining the internal patina is important is a poor strategy for the health of the horn in part because that internal patina will reform very quickly.

Mere mortals have horns with corrosion. It's a fact of life.

Have your horn professionally cleaned on a regular basis and if a tube rots through have it patched or replaced.

[iiipopes]

I agree that cast iron is the best for cooking. Lodge skillets are the best, made in the traditional manner.
I agree that a cast iron skillet or dutch oven needs re-seasoning occasionally, because even though I never use detergent to clean them, I do not limit what I cook in them, and sometimes you just have to scrub out, recoat and reseason (traditionally, upside down over a bed of campfire coals, but I digress...)
I agree that this is not the best analogy, because a brass instrument is usually not subjected to the conditions that polymerize the seasoning of the pan.
Corrosion and red rot are facts of life. Eventually, all brass instruments need to be repaired or replaced as set forth in the examples in this thread. The best preventative is what has been set forth: regular cleaning and maintenance, and budgeting for eventual repairs.

[bobd0]

I think the cast iron analogy is valid since metals react similarly to their environment. I don't equate the use of cast iron cookware, of which I believe Griswold is the finest example, to brass instruments, but I do believe they both develop a "seasoned" surface that varies based on their use.

I believe cleaning all the patina from a horn affects its performance just as removing the seasoning from cast iron affects its performance. The original post was ultrasonic cleaning problems. This is just my observation of what might be causing some of those problems. It's similar to a solid wood archtop guitar. The guitar top is finely graduated while tap tuned to take advantage of natural nodes in the wood. Brass instruments have nodes that are related to the variations in thickness of the metal. These points are where deposits migrate under vibration. I think these deposits are counteracting the variations in metal thickness, thereby improving performance. It's no coincidence that when these deposits are removed they are at thinner, weaker points in the metal.

I'm not saying don't clean your instrument. I'm saying maybe aggressive cleaning techniques remove more than necessary and that might affect the performance of the instrument. Regular mild cleaning might be all you need to keep the instrument in top condition, like a cast iron skillet. Clean it too well and you have to start the seasoning process all over again.

Or I could be totally wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last!

[mbeastep]

To wrap up this thread, I am glad to report that I have my horn back and it is playing well. Dan Oberloh was able to spend several hours on it in one day. After doing an acid cleaning on the valves, he poked around and found leaks in the through-ports of both the first and third valves. After cleaning away the corrosion, he made nice, smooth solder repairs of the holes. Beautiful work, and much appreciated. I am urged to keep my horn cleaner.

Thanks again for the suggestions. The comments of Matt Walters were very close to describing my situation except that it seems in my case that the ultrasonic cleaning did not create the problem, but only exposed it.

Special thanks to Allan Horlick for his willingness to help out with a horn and to Daryl Caswell for facilitating the repair.

mbeastep