Martin Mammoth or Conn 20J?

[fairweathertuba]

Took the horn to rehearsal today. The other two tubists maintain that it's a mechanical problem of some kind.

Like a need for the longer valve stems that has already been mentioned?

It's really weird that a horn could be in circulation for so long and not be ready to play or the condition of it be properly known. I'd probably be contacting the seller and negotiating if I had bought this instrument.

[royjohn]

You can do a little down and dirty experimenting on the valve alignment. If the stems are too short, the horn will likely play better on valve down notes if the valve buttons are partly unscrewed so that the valves can go down further. If the valve felts and corks under the valve cap are compressed so that open notes are stuffy or sound wrong (not what you said) then depressing them slightly as you play open notes may change the tone quality for the better. If unscrewing the valve top caps improves either the open or the down notes, the valves may be set too far down and either the felts under the buttons are too thin(down notes) or the corks and felts under the caps are too big. The tone may change for the better doing any of these adjustments or a tuner may show the tuning being better.

Of course, do examine the horn for leaks, esp. around the valve block and knuckles and the water keys. Big dents around the valve slides could be a problem and you should examine the passages in the valves to see if there could be holes in them. If the guides are somehow off to the left or right, that could put notes out and since the valves could have rotated back into position to produce the improvement you noted, possibly they were out of alignment from side to side. The correction might be temporary, you'd have to do a careful examination.

I think the person who urged you to get with someone fairly knowledgeable about how these horns work was right. There are a limited number of things to go wrong and someone who has seen these things once or twice will figure it out fairly quickly.

[Uncle Markie]

Ed Firth said it - get the valves aligned. It makes a huge difference. You might want to check the valve guides too.

Mark Heter

[Hetzer21]

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. A few minor procedures have yielded great results. The tech said that the horn's porting was quite compromised by felts and corks that were the wrong match. All easy fixes. She said it might be that longer stems would help even more. Even so, I am quite pleased with the improvements that were so easily accomplished.

[EdFirth]

Building or ordering longer stems would work great. You can also cut a piece of stem stock to the desired added length and add it to the top of the existing stem, screwing the finger button through it into the original stem and grt the same result. It's alot cheaper and works perfectly fine. My Martin has had this done and I have no complaints. Ed

[Hetzer21]

Breakthrough! I took the horn in yesterday to a second technician. He anticipated having it ready in about 4 work days. However, he called today and announced a surprisingly easy fix. He worked with the horn for hours and was flummoxed--- until he noticed the valves, which were out and sitting in order on his workbench. Something caught his eye and he soon realized that the #1 valve and the #3 valve had been reversed. No markings at all and a passable if not great sound had muddied the waters, so to speak.

So, long story short, I spent this evening playing around on a very lovely, responsive, and satisfying vintage Martin. Sweet!!!

[zwad]

Lets play a little game:

I have linked 4 different recordings of me playing the same tuba, on different pieces, on the same concert.

The recording device is out in the audience for an outdoor concert (It's a zoom H1 recorder).

Why don't you folks try to guess what tuba I'm playing, I'll give you three choices:
Martin Mammoth
Conn 25J
Holton BB 345

Here are the links to the recordings:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzWI0O ... sp=sharing" target="_blank
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzWI0O ... sp=sharing" target="_blank
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzWI0O ... sp=sharing" target="_blank
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzWI0O ... sp=sharing" target="_blank


I'll give you some time to reply with guesses and then I'll post the answer.

-John

[zwad]

lol

[Hetzer21]

Thanks for this fun challenge!

The first two recordings are the clearest in terms of being able to discern the tuba's sound qualities. I'd say that #1 is the Holton and #2 is the Martin.

Having said that, here is a duo of tales to add another wrinkle to this sound quality dilemma. Years ago, after having saved up my money for a number of months, I showed up at a rock band rehearsal with a savory 1961 Fender Precision bass. No one noticed.

A few years later I sold that bass and found an $80.00 wonder at a city-wide garage sale. Again, I went to rehearsal and said nary a word about the instrument, which was pretty mediocre. And, again, no one noticed.

[tusabtuba]

Last time I looked Dave Fedderly, i.e. Baltimore Brass, had a Conn 24J for sale. It is interesting to note that at one time ALL the DC service bands, and the US Army Field Band used Martins. Could have easily had either Conns or Martins, but all chose Martins. When I joined The Army Band in 1971, we still had a set of four Martins, two side action and the other two top action, so when sharing books, which we did, both players had an even chance of seeing the music. they were salvaged in about 1972.

John M. Taylor

[tusabtuba]

At one time, ALL the DC service bands and The US Army Field Band used Martins. They had the choice of Conns or Martins and chose Martin. When I joined The Army Band in 1971 we had four Martins, two top action and two side actin so players sharping a stand would have an equal chance at seeing the music.

I note someone mentioning a Martin for sale that did not have the Marsailes Shanks -- aka tuning bits. The very old Martins had solid leadpipes like we see today. CPO Lenny Jung who was principal in The US Navy Band said he worked with Martin right after World War Two perfecting the Marsailes Shanks. I suspect Martin Wilk can make a good set, he's very good.

The Martins lost favor as more and more Service band players were playing C tubas, and even the BB-flat players found better tubas for the job.

Tusabtuba

[bort]

Lenny Jung's tuba was awesome! What a nice guy and outstanding player. I played next to him as a college freshman in a community band, that was a blast. Goodness, probably 15 years ago now. I hate to ask (and never know how to ask) questions like this, but is he still with us? I hope he is well!

[tusabtuba]

Lee Stofer http://www.tubameister.com" target="_blank has a three-valve Martin for sale. Check it out. Tusabtuba

[toobagrowl]

I think I'd pick the Martin Mammoth over the Conn 20J.

[zwad]

Thanks for this fun challenge!

The first two recordings are the clearest in terms of being able to discern the tuba's sound qualities. I'd say that #1 is the Holton and #2 is the Martin....

Thanks for answering the challenge! Just to add some technicolor, the tuba you are hearing is the same tuba in all 4 recordings.

They are all at the same outdoor concert.
-The first recording is a solo with the tuba up front, outside of the bandshell
-The remaining recordings are from the same original recorder location, only now I am in the back of the bandshell, and thus farther away from the recorder. I wanted to give folks an idea of the tuba's sound in more of an, ensemble, situation.

Anyone else want to "name that tuba" from the recordings on page 3???
Again, I give you three choices: Conn 25J, Holton 345, or Martin Mammoth

Regards,
John

[edsel585960]

I would love to have the good fortune to get to play a Martin someday but I would not trade my 20 or 22J for anything. I play mostly with a German band and the 2xj's have no problem laying down a foundation.

[toobagrowl]

Anyone else want to "name that tuba" from the recordings on page 3???
Again, I give you three choices: Conn 25J, Holton 345, or Martin Mammoth

Regards,
John

First, good job on the recordings. You sound really good! I hope you play with other groups besides that community concert band

I'm gonna vote Martin Mammoth. I say that because the tuba sound is brighter and has a more compact, penetrating quality to it that I have not heard from the big Holtons or Conns. The Martin Mammoth, Holton 345 and Conn 25J all have big, fat sounds, but are different from each other.

Of course, the player trumps anything else, and if I am wrong I will have egg all over my face. But I still vote Martin Mammoth for the recordings

[zwad]

Anyone else want to "name that tuba" from the recordings on page 3???
Again, I give you three choices: Conn 25J, Holton 345, or Martin Mammoth

Regards,
John

First, good job on the recordings. You sound really good! I hope you play with other groups besides that community concert band

I'm gonna vote Martin Mammoth. I say that because the tuba sound is brighter and has a more compact, penetrating quality to it that I have not heard from the big Holtons or Conns. The Martin Mammoth, Holton 345 and Conn 25J all have big, fat sounds, but are different from each other.

Of course, the player trumps anything else, and if I am wrong I will have egg all over my face. But I still vote Martin Mammoth for the recordings

Thanks for the comment, tooba, and for answering the challenge!. I will reveal the answer after two more guesses which will make 4 total.

-John

[zwad]

Any more guesses on the recordings on page 3?

[zwad]

Alright I'll play because I don't mind a little egg on my face. My guess is based on reason since mouthpiece combinations and acoustics lead me down too many paths. I say the 25.

I'm omitting the 345 because this thread is a mammoth vs conn thread which would attract your attention more.

I'm also omitting the Martin because conn owners seem like they have to defend their horns more from the Martin crowd. So what a great thread to finally stick it to them.

And amazing playing!

You are correct Sir, on all counts, and your reasoning is impeccable! I was indeed playing the Conn 25J (4v Upright bell) with the stainless steel, LM4 mouthpiece (Loud Mouthpiece Company). Below is a picture of the tuba.

Conn25J.PNG

I actually have never played the Holton 345 or the Martin but I bet both of these are really great horns. I just really like that classic 6/4 sound.

One thing that I think is an advantage of the Conn 2xJ tubas, is the availability of different bells for them. It is becoming a bit rare but it's not impossible to find an original upright brass bell for them and there is even a fellow in England who makes fiberglass replacement upright bells for them ( http://www.nightingaletrumpets.co.uk/" target="_blank).

Also, the Conn 2xj tubas actually use the same bell collar size as the Conn 20k sousaphone, so you can use the 26" fiberglass sousaphone bell on the Conn 2xJ tubas. I do this for most outdoor concerts and I get quite a different sound (crisp and focused, yet darker and more organ like) with the sousaphone bell and the intonation is still pretty good even though the bell flare is different than the original 24" brass bells (See photo below of my fiberglass sousa bell on the Conn2xJ).

Fiberglass_bell.PNG

Having the availability of different bells, I believe, makes the Conn 2xJ tubas more versatile, I have 3 different bells:
-Upright bell: For solos, orchestra concerts
-Brass forward bell: For concerts where the ceiling is low or there are a lot of curtains above me
-Fiberglass sousaphone bell: For outdoor concerts where I need a very large sound with a lot of bass

I'll post a few recording clips of the fiberglass bell sound on the Conn2xJ tuba sometime with the same recorder at the same park where we play. You can compare these with the earlier recordings on page three to get idea of the difference between the upright brass, and fiberglass bell sound.

Thanks for participating in the challenge!,
John