Lubrication

[balchb]

What is your recommended lubricants for a new rotary tuba?

1. Bearings
2. Linkages
3. Inside the valve sides
4. Slide grease

Tom at Mack Brass said to be weary of synthetic. I'm currently using Yamaha synthetic rotor on bearings, Hetman 12 down the tubes and Super Lube grease. His take was that synthetic leads to build-up inside the casings. Curious to hear what others think and what is recommended.

Thanks!

[bisontuba]

I use this for everything but the slides

http://www.amazon.com/SUPERSLICK-KEY-RO ... 6957703096" target="_blank" target="_blank

and this on the slides

http://www.amazon.com/Selmer-Tuning-Sli ... B0002E3GEQ" target="_blank" target="_blank

+1 for SuperSlick!
Mark

[balchb]

Thanks!

Another question comes to mind - how does one transition from synthetic to petro? I've heard it is a big no-no to mix them... Do I have to have it professionally cleaned?

I also read about the oil being capable of dissolving the grease to avoid build-up. Is this important?

[iiipopes]

Roger Lewis posted years ago the following (if I remember it correctly)
1) Sewing maching oil for the spindle bearings: fill the well in the cap, apply to the top, pull the valve slide without depressing the valve paddle in order to induce vacuum to draw the oil up into the bearing.
2) 3-in-1 oil for the linkage.
3) regular valve oil to occasionally "wash" gunk down to the water key, if a rotor sticks. I apply it to the top tube of the first valve circuit, taking care to not let it drip onto the inner walls of the slide tubing and cause more gunk in the form of diluted slide grease to get into the rotors, and let it work its way throughout the valve block.
4) a light grease for the movable slides, which should be lapped in on a new tuba, especially the first valve slide.
5) a heavier grease for the main tuning slide and other slides that need to stay once set.

EDIT: Found it: Roger referred to a series of videos covering all aspects of a rotary tuba, not just the valves:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42395&p=368076&hili ... es#p368076" target="_blank

[ghmerrill]

With all due respect to Tom, who has substantial experience, I don't think that his warning should be taken as a general prohibition of synthetic lubricants -- and he may not have intended this. I've tried a number of them, and there are differences.

I can tell you that I used nothing but synthetic lubricants on my Cerveny rotary BBb horn during the 15 years I had it (Alisyn and Yamaha) and would not choose to use anything else. The only rotary horn I have now is an old Amati oval euphonium which I play rarely, but I use the same synthetics on it. Have never seen any problem with accumulation, but I do flush/clean the instruments at least twice a year.

Not to start a flame war, but I would not use Hetman's since I've seen just too many complaints about "slime" and other problems with those products. I don't think this would be true for everyone, and I believe this may be largely a matter of body chemistry, but I just don't want to take the chance -- and I think the Yamaha synthetic oils are great. A lot of people worship Hetman products.

I used to use Lanolin on all my slides, and then just recently switched to Dow High Vacuum Grease -- about which you can find a variety of arguments pro and con.

Since I now play a 981/982 clone, I do NO slide pulling. On the Cerveny 781, I lapped the first valve slide and used it constantly, often avoiding use of the 4th valve by means of that. As lubrication on that, I used Montana Xtreme gun oil (it's a petroleum product that contains silicones, but not teflon). It seemed to work better over longer periods than the other stuff I had.

[balchb]

I think I found what seems to be (hopefully not just temporary) success... I ordered Hetman 13 last week just after my initial frustration with a sticky valve. Today I had the opportunity to use it. I put it on the top and bottom bearings, the linkage balls and joints, and the finger paddle joints, and they are much quieter and seem to be working well.

Thanks for the note about using the vacuum effect to draw in the oil to the spindle bearings! I also never knew to use different greases. So far, I'm OK with the Super Lube, the first slide on this Wessex horn works great.

I'll definitely keep the Superslick in mind and heed the Hetman warning if I see anything start to change.

[balchb]

Roger Lewis posted years ago the following (if I remember it correctly)
1) Sewing maching oil for the spindle bearings: fill the well in the cap, apply to the top, pull the valve slide without depressing the valve paddle in order to induce vacuum to draw the oil up into the bearing.
2) 3-in-1 oil for the linkage.
3) regular valve oil to occasionally "wash" gunk down to the water key, if a rotor sticks. I apply it to the top tube of the first valve circuit, taking care to not let it drip onto the inner walls of the slide tubing and cause more gunk in the form of diluted slide grease to get into the rotors, and let it work its way throughout the valve block.
4) a light grease for the movable slides, which should be lapped in on a new tuba, especially the first valve slide.
5) a heavier grease for the main tuning slide and other slides that need to stay once set.

EDIT: Found it: Roger referred to a series of videos covering all aspects of a rotary tuba, not just the valves:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42395&p=368076&hili ... es#p368076" target="_blank" target="_blank

HA! This is what got me in trouble on my Wessex sticky valve thread! Great videos! I learned a lot (probably too much for an amateur!)

[iiipopes]

With all due respect to Tom, who has substantial experience, I don't think that his warning should be taken as a general prohibition of synthetic lubricants -- and he may not have intended this. I've tried a number of them, and there are differences.

I sure as hell can. Trash. Every single synthetic lubricant I have used, especially Hetmans, turns to white frothy gunk. They should all be outlawed. Trash. Every single one of them.

But let me tell you how I really feel.

[Walter Webb]

Hetman's is a specially formulated oil, designed to create layers of green slimy crust that builds up until a piston or valve cannot move. Did I mention that the crusty slime is GREEN?

[balchb]

Wow, some definite Hetman hate goin' on... I'll rethink my choice here...

[MartyNeilan]

I switched to this on both pistons and rotors after using Hetman's (still use Hetman for slides) and have not noticed nearly the buildup:
http://www.bikyle.com/T2.asp
or
http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-12164-t2-v ... ecial.aspx
I do not like "regular" valve oil because it evaporates rapidly. I do not want to be like some trumpet players who pull their pistons every 10-15 minutes to oil and fiddle around with them because they are using the "fast" oil.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Just ordered some Monster Oil to try--a new TubaNet sponsor.! Also, they are having a sale this long Thanksgiving Day weekend.
Mark

[swillafew]

On the valves: I don't know if the formulas have changed, but I have Hetman from the mid 1990's and the original bottles (2 of the 3) are still going strong. I put Al Cass right down the second valve slide, and gravity seems to get it wherever it needs to go. The bottle of Al Cass is even older.

On the slides: I'm not very good.

[MaryAnn]

I have been happiest with Alisyn for pistons and the Selmer red stuff for slides. I also put Alisyn down the tubes to the rotors of my (french) horn and am happy with its performance too. Blue juice, Al Cass, Hetman, none of these worked as well as the Alisyn does. Blue juice in particular seemed to need refreshing at extremely frequent intervals, hourly almost, while the Alisyn keeps the horns happy for a week. No grunk here....

[Paul S]

I've used the Yamaha VVO Vintage Superior Valve Oil (synthetic) on both the piston and rotor valves on my PT606 since the day I bought it new (about ten years now). I typically do a thorough valve and valve casing cleaning with a carburator and piston cleaning spray (yes from the automotive dept.) once or twice a year and have not seen any gunk or residue build up. I use the Yamaha Rotor Spindle Oil and Yamaha Rotor Lever Oil as well with never a problem. I did take advantage of the Monster Oil sale this past weekend though and will see how it compares down the road.

[iiipopes]

I've used the Yamaha VVO Vintage Superior Valve Oil (synthetic) on both the piston and rotor valves on my PT606 since the day I bought it new (about ten years now). I typically do a thorough valve and valve casing cleaning with a carburator and piston cleaning spray (yes from the automotive dept.) once or twice a year and have not seen any gunk or residue build up. I use the Yamaha Rotor Spindle Oil and Yamaha Rotor Lever Oil as well with never a problem. I did take advantage of the Monster Oil sale this past weekend though and will see how it compares down the road.

Of course you won't have any buildup using carburetor cleaner. But have you any idea how toxic those volatile chemicals are? You should not use carburetor cleaner.

[balchb]

I had a great email come back from a repair shop in my area, aligning with much of what is being posted.

If Hetman products prove to be inferior with my horn/body chemistry, I will have the horn professionally cleaned and switch to traditional (petro) oils. So far valve performance has improved since the Hetman 13 came in and I'll keep this thread in mind if a transition needs to occur. The linkages definitely feel/sound better.

I'm not sold on the Super Lube grease, so that may be grounds for a change to petro... perhaps having my slides lapped for the really tight clearances will make it a little better. First slide is great, others are hard to move.

Thanks again everyone!

[Paul S]

Of course you won't have any buildup using carburetor cleaner. But have you any idea how toxic those volatile chemicals are? You should not use carburetor cleaner.

Yes I do understand, I began my undergrad work as a Chemical & Nuclear Engineering major and have a federal chemical pesticide license. I also know these chemicals are extremely effective in cleaning and maintaining my horn (my valves are stainless steel btw) and this process was recommended by several instrument repair techs whom I trust. That said, there are few effective cleaners that are not dangerous if you are stupid in how you use them. I try very hard not to be stupid. As Joe politely stated.. (bloke "Go drink some Blue Juice or Hetman's. I'm sure they're not toxic at all.") The same goes sucking in the vaporized forms of these oils in your horn as well.

I do not use the cleaner and then instantly play the horn and I am thorough with my post cleaning rinsing of any chemical residual, using a cloth wipe down, and follow up procedures such as airing out the horn and pistons. These are important steps anytime you work with any cleaners and lubricants in your horn or elsewhere and I stand corrected in not taking the time to mention these as such.

[balchb]

Of course you won't have any buildup using carburetor cleaner. But have you any idea how toxic those volatile chemicals are? You should not use carburetor cleaner.

Yes I do understand, I began my undergrad work as a Chemical & Nuclear Engineering major and have a federal chemical pesticide license. I also know these chemicals are extremely effective in cleaning and maintaining my horn (my valves are stainless steel btw) and this process was recommended by several instrument repair techs whom I trust. That said, there are few effective cleaners that are not dangerous if you are stupid in how you use them. I try very hard not to be stupid. As Joe politely stated.. (bloke "Go drink some Blue Juice or Hetman's. I'm sure they're not toxic at all.") The same goes sucking in the vaporized forms of these oils in your horn as well.

I do not use the cleaner and then instantly play the horn and I am thorough with my post cleaning rinsing of any chemical residual, using a cloth wipe down, and follow up procedures such as airing out the horn and pistons. These are important steps anytime you work with any cleaners and lubricants in your horn or elsewhere and I stand corrected in not taking the time to mention these as such.

Same can be said with a hydrochloric (muriatic) acid bath, brasso, or other harsh chemicals used in the repair shop. Flush it out, wipe it out, don't inhale directly, all's well.

[PMeuph]

...and never use gasoline as a cleaner...

...Use solvents (that are more flammable, more fuming, and cost 10X as much) that are specifically labeled as "cleaners".

Yeah, like Lighter fluid!

http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/ronso ... H5tZ1fF_I0" target="_blank

(At almost $15 a litre)

Compared to :
http://www.gasbuddy.com/GB_Price_List.aspx?cntry=CAN" target="_blank