Bass trombone upgrade?

[Chasetbr]

I currently play my high school's bass trombone and was wondering how good this horn is and if I should upgrade? I currently play a reynolds contempora single valve bass trombone like this one in very good condition with a bach 1.5 g http://contemporacorner.com/wp-content/ ... 02197x.jpg" target="_blank . Also if any of you have an affordable bass trombone you no longer want PM me especially any two valve bones.
(website I got pic from http://contemporacorner.com/trombones/contempora-bass/" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank)

[gregsundt]

The Reynolds was a very well-made bass, and pros still play them. To upgrade in quality, and not just add valves, would be a fairly expensive proposition ($2000-2500 to start, for a used American-made horn in reasonable shape). Unless you are "switching majors", you might be just as well to save your $$ for other opportunities. But if money is no object...lots of good trombones to be had.

[bort]

^ What he said.

The only other thing to add is that since you're using the school's horn, when you are done with school you won't have a horn anymore. So, perhaps that would be the primary motivation for buying something? Used bass trombones are not inexpensive, but you can find some things in the low to mid $1,000's. Are they better than the Reynolds? I really have no clue, just thinking at some point you'll be faced with "horn or no horn."

[Chasetbr]

"horn or no horn."

that was also my thought, buy a horn so I could continue playing. Are jin bao bass trombones any good?

[PMeuph]

http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TB831L_Bass_Bone.php" target="_blank
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If you're serious about wanting a bass trombone, join the Tromboneforum.org and go nuts there. You'll get quite a few opinions from people who only play bass bone and have some advice.

I have one of the Jinbao Yamaclones. (Like Mack Brass is selling) I bought it from another reseller, and ended up paying about $1300-1400 CAD for it after taxes and everything. I've used it enough to justify it and enjoy it quite a bit. Once it was properly cleaned, the valves worked fine, and same goes for the slide. I have worn through the plating on the trigger, but that's partially due to my acidic sweat. ( I also get green streaks on my neck from raw brass trombones, so I now cover them)

If you're looking for an instrument that won't break the bank, that you can use anywhere(Big band, chamber ensembles, orchestra, band, etc) the Mack is about as good as it gets. The only disadvantage, is that you won't be able to sell it for what you paid for it. (But, that concern isn't in everybody's mind when they buy a horn.)

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I've tried a couple boutique horns, including some very expensive custom made horns. If I could buy any horn tomorrow, I'd get a RATH R9, but I don't play enough, or well enough to justify such a purchase.
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Others will recommend a used King, Conn, Bach Yamaha, etc... they won't be wrong, and in the long run you might be better off with a used 50B or a used YBL-613 or 7B or 62H....

YMMV.

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PS. Two valves aren't always the only solution to low range... (A pulled slide in flat E works, or an extended slide to Eb also adds possibilities)

[Donn]

If you get a chance, please weigh that Reynolds bass.

Apparently, your average one valve bass trombone weighs around 4 lbs. (That would be 1.8 kg if you prefer.) An additional valve might cost you a pound or so on top of that. Roughly.

My Reynolds Contempora bass trombone, with Bronz-O-Lyte (copper) bell, weighs 2 lbs, 4 oz. No one believes me.

I know at least one person who loved to play bass trombone, but doesn't play any more because of arm/wrist/hand/whatever problems. 5 lbs doesn't sound like much, to a tuba player, but you don't use your left hand to hang a tuba in front of your face while you're playing.

(Also ... intonation on 1st position F? Trombone players insist that all trombones play sharp on that note, but mine plays flat?)

PS. Two valves aren't always the only solution to low range... (A second valve in flat E works, or an extended slide to Eb also adds possibilities)

How do you work in a second valve, without going to two valves? Do you mean a valve pull stop on the 1st valve slide? I have that, and actually leave it tuned to E all the time. An Eb slide would be better, low B is still somewhat imaginary.

[PMeuph]

PS. Two valves aren't always the only solution to low range... (A pulled slide in flat E works, or an extended slide to Eb also adds possibilities)

How do you work in a second valve, without going to two valves? Do you mean a valve pull stop on the 1st valve slide? I have that, and actually leave it tuned to E all the time. An Eb slide would be better, low B is still somewhat imaginary.

I meant to pull out the first slide to flat E(if possible). I have no idea what I was thinking we I wrote what I wrote.
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Eb slide extenders can be made from hobby store parts for about $25.

[bort]

Too bad the school owns it, not him.

[Bob Kolada]

1062's are great horns, but make sure to check it over if you're buying a new one.

[Lars Trawen]

http://www.thomann.de/gb/michael_rath_r9_bass_rotax.htm

[cambrook]

If you want to upgrade from bass trombone you need a tuba!

[Donn]

I wonder about that. I mean, I know there's a bit of a thing for old Conn 72Hs and similar, but do these guys really bury their Shires/whatever in the closet and bring the 72H to all their gigs, or is it more like a fancy that they can afford to indulge while still playing something else 90% of the time?

I can't think of any analogue in the tuba world -- I mean, lots of us have tubas with limitations that might keep them at home for a lot of gigs, but can't think of a category of "old school" tuba like this that is a good instrument within its limitations, but might not be able to play everything in modern repertoire.

[gregsundt]

I wonder about that. I mean, I know there's a bit of a thing for old Conn 72Hs and similar, but do these guys really bury their Shires/whatever in the closet and bring the 72H to all their gigs, or is it more like a fancy that they can afford to indulge while still playing something else 90% of the time?

I can't think of any analogue in the tuba world -- I mean, lots of us have tubas with limitations that might keep them at home for a lot of gigs, but can't think of a category of "old school" tuba like this that is a good instrument within its limitations, but might not be able to play everything in modern repertoire.

My mind quickly goes to a Mirafone 186. There was a time when this was a "standard" tuba for nearly everything. Especially if you were on the west coast. Now, it is almost never seen in a professional orchestra, even though it would work nicely in much of the repertoire. So, many pros now have a small CC (186, piggy, etc) or a plus-sized Eb/F for solo, quintet, and occasional orchestra playing, and a 5/4 - 6/4 BAT for big ensembles. Not right or wrong, but a good analogy, I think. Especially with the resurgence of the big 4/4 tubas (e.g. 188, etc.)

Time to spin this into a new thread, right, bloke?

[Donn]

Now, it is almost never seen in a professional orchestra, even though it would work nicely in much of the repertoire.

That's the thing, though - why I'm glad I'm a tuba player, not bass trombone - it will work fine. The old single valve bass trombones that the players love so much? Don't ask me, but according to what I hear, they don't work - you can't manage with one of those things, if you get a part that's written for the 2 valve bass trombone that's now the standard.

Resistance, tone, those things are issues too, but subject to taste, and I'm guessing still an open question among modern bass trombones. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a larger range of variation among tubas.

[jeopardymaster]

I've seen 3 of those Chinese bass trombones, all of them double independent rotor horns. The first, one that I owned for a while (the brand was "Maestro") was very nice but the slide was a bit short. That may be the Yamaha clone, not sure. I've seen 2 others that both had a Chinese version of the famous curved King bell-section crossbar, one in silver and the other in rose brass. Both played extremely well and appeared to be well-made. Any of those can be had new for under $1000, I think. (As an aside, I used to own a Reynolds Contempora bass with a dependent second rotor, that had a lovely sound but cramped up my hand something fierce.)

[tbn.al]

The old single valve bass trombones that the players love so much? Don't ask me, but according to what I hear, they don't work - you can't manage with one of those things, if you get a part that's written for the 2 valve bass trombone that's now the standard.

Just got through two weekend concerts of this POS. Somebody needs to clue David Clydesdale in. He is an idiot. If you are going to try to play this with a single trigger you had better be both quick of mind and quick of hand. Way too many first to sevenths in 16th passages. The page before is even worse. Same licks but in E.

Clueless Clydesdale.jpg

I

[Donn]

I think you can find him on facebook etc., if you want to say a word on behalf of fellow trombone players.

[Michael Bush]

Just got through two weekend concerts of this POS. Somebody needs to clue David Clydesdale in. He is an idiot. If you are going to try to play this with a single trigger you had better be both quick of mind and quick of hand. Way too many first to sevenths in 16th passages. The page before is even worse. Same licks but in E.

I have a love/hate relationship with those big Baptist key-change extravaganzas. They provide several opportunities a year to play (even though I'm not a Baptist), so that's good. But there are issues with the music!

[J.c. Sherman]

Bass-Bone and Tuba are my equal partners. My own is a Yeo 822G. It's freaking awesome, and I take the second valve off often (I have a separate case for the assembly). It's a great instrument for a wide variety of scenarios, and it has an amazing dynamic capacity while also able to tongue on a dime.

For those who poo-poo single valves, besides needing to research the awesome career of George Roberts, Doug Yeo wrote an amazing article "In defense of the Single-Valve Bass Trombone" which explains partially why I play dependent and single valves exclusively... he's more eloquent than I.

All that said...

A Reynolds is a jewel... my Bb/F with a slide to Eb had an apocalyptic low end and was a sweetheart to play; I wish to hell I'd never sold it for a 184 Miraphone... except I loved that too... Things that play like it are precisely zilch. BUT, the Yamaha 612Rs are kinda-sorta close-ish. The 321Rs too... sorta. Phil Teale peals pain with his vintage dependent Yammys!

Olds Roberts singles are tasty fishies! The double valves are... not so much. Avoid the Roberts Yammy... great for recording mostly, not a hall.

The Dillon/Baltimore Brass Yama-clones are better than they have any right to be. See discussions about the Miraclone 186s to see what I mean. Very, very good player for the cash. The 820 Yamahas they copied are excellent as well.

I'd take a Getzen 1062FD any day of the week, but the 1052 might feel a little more stable for the average player.

Never discount a 7B or 8B. Try before you buy, but some are exquisite.

Thayer-valve bass trombones feel open because they leak - same with CL valves (ducks!). Honestly, I hate them physically on my neck and how they perform. Blech! To each their own, though. I'll play standard rotors until I'm buried.

My recommendation would be to patiently wait for a 622 Bass, the earlier Yeo model. Extremely good instrument, flexible, and damn near the same as the current Xeno. If you insist on spending real money, Look for a nicely seasoned Bach, or Shires/Edwards/Rath customophones.

[MartyNeilan]

A different composer once told me, "I write the music, you figure out how to play it." A skilled bass trombonist could play that part - even the tuba part on the bottom split - on a single trigger with a long pull. On a double trigger, it would be relatively easy for anyone with chops. But the typical church player on third trombone playing a .547 horn with a trendy "open wrap" F attachment (that offers minimal pull) would most likely have to play a few of those notes up an octave. Much of that type of music is primarily scored for the accompaniment track sold with the musicals, with concern for the "average trombone joe" being secondary.

I think it is important to strike the balance between playability and pushing the envelope. Otherwise, we would be playing gigs once we learned Bb and F

I used to gripe about some of those parts by Clydesdale and Kingsmore written in the basement all the time. Often, I thought they sounded/played better up an octave. Now, I just practice more in the low register. (The guy who arranges 90% of what I play in churches these days tends to have a better understanding of how to effectively score for brass, and make charts that are both playable and appealing to the listener.)