Bass trombone upgrade?

[Donn]

Now, it is almost never seen in a professional orchestra, even though it would work nicely in much of the repertoire.

That's the thing, though - why I'm glad I'm a tuba player, not bass trombone - it will work fine. The old single valve bass trombones that the players love so much? Don't ask me, but according to what I hear, they don't work - you can't manage with one of those things, if you get a part that's written for the 2 valve bass trombone that's now the standard.

Resistance, tone, those things are issues too, but subject to taste, and I'm guessing still an open question among modern bass trombones. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a larger range of variation among tubas.

[jeopardymaster]

I've seen 3 of those Chinese bass trombones, all of them double independent rotor horns. The first, one that I owned for a while (the brand was "Maestro") was very nice but the slide was a bit short. That may be the Yamaha clone, not sure. I've seen 2 others that both had a Chinese version of the famous curved King bell-section crossbar, one in silver and the other in rose brass. Both played extremely well and appeared to be well-made. Any of those can be had new for under $1000, I think. (As an aside, I used to own a Reynolds Contempora bass with a dependent second rotor, that had a lovely sound but cramped up my hand something fierce.)

[tbn.al]

The old single valve bass trombones that the players love so much? Don't ask me, but according to what I hear, they don't work - you can't manage with one of those things, if you get a part that's written for the 2 valve bass trombone that's now the standard.

Just got through two weekend concerts of this POS. Somebody needs to clue David Clydesdale in. He is an idiot. If you are going to try to play this with a single trigger you had better be both quick of mind and quick of hand. Way too many first to sevenths in 16th passages. The page before is even worse. Same licks but in E.

Clueless Clydesdale.jpg

I

[Donn]

I think you can find him on facebook etc., if you want to say a word on behalf of fellow trombone players.

[Michael Bush]

Just got through two weekend concerts of this POS. Somebody needs to clue David Clydesdale in. He is an idiot. If you are going to try to play this with a single trigger you had better be both quick of mind and quick of hand. Way too many first to sevenths in 16th passages. The page before is even worse. Same licks but in E.

I have a love/hate relationship with those big Baptist key-change extravaganzas. They provide several opportunities a year to play (even though I'm not a Baptist), so that's good. But there are issues with the music!

[J.c. Sherman]

Bass-Bone and Tuba are my equal partners. My own is a Yeo 822G. It's freaking awesome, and I take the second valve off often (I have a separate case for the assembly). It's a great instrument for a wide variety of scenarios, and it has an amazing dynamic capacity while also able to tongue on a dime.

For those who poo-poo single valves, besides needing to research the awesome career of George Roberts, Doug Yeo wrote an amazing article "In defense of the Single-Valve Bass Trombone" which explains partially why I play dependent and single valves exclusively... he's more eloquent than I.

All that said...

A Reynolds is a jewel... my Bb/F with a slide to Eb had an apocalyptic low end and was a sweetheart to play; I wish to hell I'd never sold it for a 184 Miraphone... except I loved that too... Things that play like it are precisely zilch. BUT, the Yamaha 612Rs are kinda-sorta close-ish. The 321Rs too... sorta. Phil Teale peals pain with his vintage dependent Yammys!

Olds Roberts singles are tasty fishies! The double valves are... not so much. Avoid the Roberts Yammy... great for recording mostly, not a hall.

The Dillon/Baltimore Brass Yama-clones are better than they have any right to be. See discussions about the Miraclone 186s to see what I mean. Very, very good player for the cash. The 820 Yamahas they copied are excellent as well.

I'd take a Getzen 1062FD any day of the week, but the 1052 might feel a little more stable for the average player.

Never discount a 7B or 8B. Try before you buy, but some are exquisite.

Thayer-valve bass trombones feel open because they leak - same with CL valves (ducks!). Honestly, I hate them physically on my neck and how they perform. Blech! To each their own, though. I'll play standard rotors until I'm buried.

My recommendation would be to patiently wait for a 622 Bass, the earlier Yeo model. Extremely good instrument, flexible, and damn near the same as the current Xeno. If you insist on spending real money, Look for a nicely seasoned Bach, or Shires/Edwards/Rath customophones.

[MartyNeilan]

A different composer once told me, "I write the music, you figure out how to play it." A skilled bass trombonist could play that part - even the tuba part on the bottom split - on a single trigger with a long pull. On a double trigger, it would be relatively easy for anyone with chops. But the typical church player on third trombone playing a .547 horn with a trendy "open wrap" F attachment (that offers minimal pull) would most likely have to play a few of those notes up an octave. Much of that type of music is primarily scored for the accompaniment track sold with the musicals, with concern for the "average trombone joe" being secondary.

I think it is important to strike the balance between playability and pushing the envelope. Otherwise, we would be playing gigs once we learned Bb and F

I used to gripe about some of those parts by Clydesdale and Kingsmore written in the basement all the time. Often, I thought they sounded/played better up an octave. Now, I just practice more in the low register. (The guy who arranges 90% of what I play in churches these days tends to have a better understanding of how to effectively score for brass, and make charts that are both playable and appealing to the listener.)

[tbn.al]

I played the part as written. I assumed since it was doubled an octave up in the 2nd bone and bassoon, and in my octave by the bass, that I was supposed to supply the crack in the whip. So I did.

[Donn]

Well, at any rate, it seems to support the proposition that if more than a few bass trombones have 2nd valves, the people who write this junk will write parts that will make the player wish he had one, and the people who are going play this junk may as well get one.

A different composer once told me, "I write the music, you figure out how to play it."

And if it means playing it on a 2-valve bass trombone that you and J.c. Sherman and Doug Yeo agree doesn't sound as good as the 1-valve you keep in the closet, do you think he cares? Or maybe you could have a word with him about ergonomic issues and injuries.

Like I say ... I'm glad I'm a tuba player.

[tbn.al]

A skilled bass trombonist could play that part - even the tuba part on the bottom split - on a single trigger with a long pull.
I used to gripe about some of those parts by Clydesdale and Kingsmore written in the basement all the time.

As you can see, I still gripe about them. I really don't think it is a lack of understanding that causes this stuff to get out, but a lack of concern. Surely these guys know how to write better than that. I really think it is an attitude of, "I've got a tomorrow deadline on this one so if I double the bass line in the lower voices I can make it happen. It'll be good enough that way." However I had a Clydesdale arangement a couple of years ago that had all 3 trumpets above high C for measures and measures.

I do think there are more than a handful of bass trombone players out there that could play this part on a single trigger, but there are far too many really quick 1sts to 7ths on the page in E to make it comfortable. Low e, T1, to low B, T7+ is never fun but fast 8ths are a nightmare.

[J.c. Sherman]

Great trick I learned via George Roberts: play low B in T3+. Not only is it an awesome false tone, but wait till you try the Bartok gliss that way!

1 trigger is more efficient than is often realized.

[ken k]

I think if you are only going to have one bass bone, you are better off with a two valve model, independent or dependent set up is a matter of personal preference. The Yamaha with the detachable second valve always looked interesting to me, however I am too used to independent rotor set up at this point in my life I am not going to switch now. (this old dog aint learnin any new tricks...)

I would like to get a single valved horn (Bach 50BO) but in all honesty I would not use it very often. I used to have an old 60H with the tuning int he slide, I wish I had never sold it of course but.... I sold it mainly because it sat in the case most of the time. The big bands I play in have some serious bass bone parts that I would not want to play with a single valve, not that it could not be done but much easier on a double valve.

an interesting horn which can be found on ebay for usually very reasonable price is the Benge 290. Very big/open horn that does not require a big mouthpiece to get a big sound. In fact they sound better with a more conservative mouthpiece. I

[Untersatz]

Are these any good?

Getzen 3062AF.jpg

[J.c. Sherman]

Are these any good?

Getzen 3062AF.jpg

They are very similar to the 1052FD. The bore profile is modeled off a classic Conn 62H, and the model differs only from the 1052 with the Axial Flow Valves. Fine horns.

As for single valves, I merely advocate that they are a nice option in life. If you have one bass bone and you have the funds capacity, get a double. The 822G simply lets you have both worlds

J.c.S.

[MartyNeilan]

Are these any good?

Getzen 3062AF.jpg

Yes, and EXPENSIVE.
I personally like the 1062 for a double trigger Getzen. It has a wider sound and can take more air than the 1052. I remember when you could get either of those horns brand new for $1750, they were quite the deal then. A used one of either horn may be just the ticket.

[J.c. Sherman]

Are these any good?

Getzen 3062AF.jpg

Yes, and EXPENSIVE.
I personally like the 1062 for a double trigger Getzen. It has a wider sound and can take more air than the 1052. I remember when you could get either of those horns brand new for $1750, they were quite the deal then. A used one of either horn may be just the ticket.

The 1062 is a more advanced instrument; making a conical bore instrument sound like a proper trombone is more challenging for someone who doesn't have a very evolved sound and playing concept. I played a 1062 for 9 years (very tricked out with Edwards parts since they didn't make a rotor trombone at the time) and it's not a typical instrument for a growing player.

I have my own anti-Thayer bias, but that doesn't mean there're not wonderful instruments with them. Do I think the 3062 is worth the extra cash over the 1052? Not by a long shot. YMMV.