Is this an original helicon or a conversion?

[imperialbari]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1013526042

[Dan Schultz]

It's not likely to be an original helicon. The bell receiver does not say 'original' and there are many mixed parts like braces, ferrules, valve caps, and fingerbuttons. However.... there is a possibility that the bell could have been soldered directly to the body and the detachable thing was just added. Also... I think if the bell was original, the seller would have included a shot of the engraving.

I think this is a 'frankenhorn' A la George Borodi. Not a bad thing... just not original.

[windshieldbug]

Hard to tell (as you know), since that was the transition period when they were building both.
It might have started out life as a helicon and was modified to remove the bell.

Also hard since they don't show you the bell.
A Conn horn with that serial number (looks like '71363') should say both "Elkhart" and "New York".

I do know that its sibling '71362' was a BBb helicon and said both.

[imperialbari]

So my asking wasn't far out.

From my own shelf I know a situation where an original instrument goes Frankenstein without any plans about conversion.

I have had a Martin Backpacker steelstring guitar a couple of years. Liked it so much, that I bought one more to give as a gift to a close friend. That 2nd sample was very responsive and alive, but despite being newer than the 1st sample it had two faults, that excluded giving it as a gift. The soundboard was unglued at a stretch near the sound hole causing a buzz in the low register. The bottom plate of a tuner had come off.

I wouldn't pay a luthier for the glueing until the tuner problem was solved. And having it sitting idle was against my liking. The tuner was still operative, so I restrung that guitar so that the G, D, and A strings came an octave up and the low E came two octaves up to the same a the high E. Very good for crisp extended chords. The buzz disappeared and hence the need for a re-glueing as the structure isn't at risk. The original tuners are discontinued, but Gotoh makes some that fit. If the first sample looses a tuner, the second will act as donor and then itself get a Gotoh. 1st sample stays original, 2nd sample stays operational. As I got a refund from the seller of the 2nd sample, its all fine with me.

Klaus

[Frank Ortega]

Any opinions about Borodi's work?

It may have been an original Helicon that was made into a detachable bell configuration to facilitate shipping and storage. But that's just conjecture. It would be nice to see a pic of the whole thing assembled.

[tofu]

I don't think that thing is an original helicon. Too many cobbled together parts. The ad also states you get a new neck. That brace from the flange to the body looks very flimsy to my eye and certainly not very strong or stable. I mean the detachable bell is really only important to somebody who is traveling with it on a constant basis. Which is why having a weak brace is problematic as the point of having the detachable bell is to use it a lot -which will place a lot of stress on the weak brace. I find it extremely odd to place that many pictures in the ad without any of the front, side or most importantly the bell attached to the horn. I sure would be reluctant to bid without playing this one and seeing it in person. The ad says fresh lacquer, but if you look closely at the photos there is a lot off pitting on the valve casings and other places. The flange has scratches - for a horn that was taken a part and "restored" that seems odd. I would at best consider it a play restoration. I personally would not pay that much for a non-original cobbled together bunch of parts that somebody threw some lacquer at. I wonder how heavy that flange is and how that affects the balance of the horn. The balance and lightness is one of the reasons I love playing mine along with the tuba like sound.

I've seen really nice conversions done by Lee Stofer where he really made an effort to make it look original - using old Conn braces and old Conn Eb monster bells cut down and a 14K body. Unless you were really knowledgable it would be hard to tell the difference. The length of the bell brace was really the only tell tale sign from my original 30K.

[bigtubby]

So my asking wasn't far out.

From my own shelf I know a situation where an original instrument goes Frankenstein without any plans about conversion.

I have had a Martin Backpacker steelstring guitar a couple of years. Liked it so much, that I bought one more to give as a gift to a close friend. That 2nd sample was very responsive and alive, but despite being newer than the 1st sample it had two faults, that excluded giving it as a gift. The soundboard was unglued at a stretch near the sound hole causing a buzz in the low register. The bottom plate of a tuner had come off.

I wouldn't pay a luthier for the glueing until the tuner problem was solved. And having it sitting idle was against my liking. The tuner was still operative, so I restrung that guitar so that the G, D, and A strings came an octave up and the low E came two octaves up to the same a the high E. Very good for crisp extended chords. The buzz disappeared and hence the need for a re-glueing as the structure isn't at risk. The original tuners are discontinued, but Gotoh makes some that fit. If the first sample looses a tuner, the second will act as donor and then itself get a Gotoh. 1st sample stays original, 2nd sample stays operational. As I got a refund from the seller of the 2nd sample, its all fine with me.

Klaus

Can you enumerate the guages of the strings and complete tuning? Interesting solution.

[bigtubby]

Here it is.
I thought it was sold a while ago, maybe it did and was returned? I don't know, but I sometime back then, I did ask about a picture with someone playing it:

I'm not a Jupiter expert but George likes Jupiter parts, does anyone recognize that bell?

[windshieldbug]

My guess is that since the very preceding tuba (71362) was a BBb helicon, this one probably started out life as one as well. What has been replaced since 1901 is anyone's guess.

[imperialbari]

Can you enumerate the guages of the strings and complete tuning? Interesting solution.

The Martin Backpacker 1st generation (until 2003 or so) has a unique structure keeping the number of pieces of wood at the surface down to 7:

root of headstock, neck, and sides are out of a single piece of mahogany
headstock extension, end piece, and back also are solid mahogany
fingerboard and bridge are rosewood
soundboard is solid spruce

As there is no truss rod Martin recommends 0.009 gauge string sets. Going from there I had my string pusher, a German guitarist with a small online store, do the calc.

1st & 6th E are both .009
2nd B is .013
3rd G is .008 (made for 12 string guitars)
4th D is .010
5th A is the only wound string and there I am not sure about the gauge. It is the lightest possible wound string available, likely meant to be a 3rd G in normal tuning.

Guitarists call this a reentrant tuning of the G, D, and A strings. The 6th E could be considered being double reentrant. This takes exact tuning anyway, but is somewhat of a PITA with simple chords where a lot of unisons will happen making this set-up meaningless. But I happen to like 5, or even 6, note chords. As a sample I only press the 2nd fret on the 1st string when playing a Gmaj. Or the 2nd fret of strings #1, 2, 3, and 5 for a Dmaj. No notes down in the rumbling range.

Klaus

[bigtubby]

Can you enumerate the guages of the strings and complete tuning? Interesting solution.

The Martin Backpacker 1st generation (until 2003 or so) has a unique structure keeping the number of pieces of wood at the surface down to 7:

root of headstock, neck, and sides are out of a single piece of mahogany
headstock extension, end piece, and back also are solid mahogany
fingerboard and bridge are rosewood
soundboard is solid spruce

As there is no truss rod Martin recommends 0.009 gauge string sets. Going from there I had my string pusher, a German guitarist with a small online store, do the calc.

1st & 6th E are both .009
2nd B is .013
3rd G is .008 (made for 12 string guitars)
4th D is .010
5th A is the only wound string and there I am not sure about the gauge. It is the lightest possible wound string available, likely meant to be a 3rd G in normal tuning.

Guitarists call this a reentrant tuning of the G, D, and A strings. The 6th E could be considered being double reentrant. This takes exact tuning anyway, but is somewhat of a PITA with simple chords where a lot of unisons will happen making this set-up meaningless. But I happen to like 5, or even 6, note chords. As a sample I only press the 2nd fret on the 1st string when playing a Gmaj. Or the 2nd fret of strings #1, 2, 3, and 5 for a Dmaj. No notes down in the rumbling range.

Klaus

That is what I wondered about, the unisons that would result with standard chord forms. Sounds interesting, I'd like to hear what you do with it.

[imperialbari]

Nothing ambitious, just playing chord sequences for my own enjoyment. I didn't like the standard tuning because because the upper tension notes sometimes ended out at the bottom of the chords.

Klaus

[Three Valves]

This item hasn't sold in nearly two years??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CONN-HELICON-BB ... 27d2ce91a3" target="_blank

[Three Valves]

I guess if one doesn't have to worry about cash flow, they can sit on inventory for years.

Must be nice!!