B&S Piston Valves

[roweenie]

BTW, does B & S manufacture their own piston sets, or do they get them from another source?

[J.c. Sherman]

Bloke, What brands of oil do you suggest? And is there anything I can do about hard lime deposits? I'll try to clean the casing more regularly and leadpipe. Is there anything else I should be considering?

The "oils" remark was meant to be sarcastic (as "certain oils" - rather than cleaning - seems to be the TubeNet solution for "sticking valves"...much as those who go to "additives" rather than "repair" for automotive problems...http://i5.walmartimages.com/dfw/dce07b8 ... 03c.v1.jpg).

Lime deposits can be removed with mild acid. There is a product called "Slime Away" (only available to repair shops) that is mild, and works fabulously, gently, and quickly. It will only "harm" the most ancient nitrocellulose and already-falling-away-from-the-instrument lacquer.

Running a brush through a valve casing does little-to-nothing. The piston itself performs that same operation hundreds or thousands of times every time a player plays his instrument. Loose filth lurks in the ports IN-BETWEEN the casings, and requires particular effort to locate and remove. It's also (typically) formed in a ring around the bottom valve caps.

Lapping valves could completely remove lime deposits, but usually isn't called for...and lapping compounds can very easily be left behind as more "loose filth".

Heavy oiling of a filthy instrument, typically, causes pistons to work better for a minute or two, and then (as the oil provides a highway for loose filth) they tend to stick worse than before - eventually settling down to "sticking about as bad as they did before".

+ 1,000,000,000,000

BUT...

Some of these (like Ron Bishop's 2000) had valves that were not beveled; they stuck... on Mahler 6! Also, these casings are flimsy at best IMHO. They are nowhere near as robust as they should be or as older piston instruments are. You may have infinitesimal damage.

Also, the valve-guide channel is bizarrely teeny, and with little clearance (until you note the above problem). Slime-away is often the solution to cleaning the casings and the channel for the guide. You also might need new guides fit.

Finally, make sure they are only travelling as far as they must, i.e. they are ported correctly. Fix all the above, and they ought to work. Otherwise, approach those who sold it with pitchforks and torches.

[Ace]

[/quote]Finally, make sure they are only travelling as far as they must, i.e. they are ported correctly. Fix all the above, and they ought to work. Otherwise, approach those who sold it with pitchforks and torches.[/quote]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Pitchforks" target="_blank

Ace

[Dan Castillo]

Angelo,

I had this problem for years. Were you able to rule out the leadpipe putting pressure on your valve section? The bell on a PT6P can "move", taking the leadpipe with it, which can then cause your first valve, or others, to stick. If this is the problem try two things and see what happens:

1. Feel down the inside of the bell to about where the brace that connects the bell to the top bow meet. Is there a raised "bump" there? If yes, the bell might have moved "in" a bit.

2. If you pull your first valve slide away from the piston and hold it there, does the valve move any more freely?

The only thing that fixed my first valve was when I had Alan take off my leadpipe and reseat it. He did a good job as I haven't had a stuck valve since. Well....not counting when I didn't oil it for weeks.

-DC

[MikeW]

The only thing that fixed my first valve was when I had Alan take off my leadpipe and reseat it...

This is the kind of problem I was trying to describe as "crush syndrome", where the bell and the valve tubing "move towards each other", often when something gets stacked or dropped on top of a gig bag. In my case, the catch on my shoulder sling popped open, and I dropped the tuba about three feet onto grass: ended up with first and second valves jammed. I took it to the repair shop and they got it working, except that after about an hour of playing the valves would start to stick a little. It was better if I kept it bathed in lamp oil, but the ghost of that bump stayed around for quite a while, and nothing fixed it, until I was considering consulting an exorcist. At that point, I noticed that the problem seemed to have stopped, and found that the solder holding the receiver onto its brace had parted: Presumably something got bent, and left a built-in stress in the mouthpipe, which distorted the valve casings just enough to cause intermittent problems. Eventually the solder gave way under the steady stress, and releived the problem. Other Tubenetters have described similar problems, that have been fixed by unsoldering a brace (not always the receiver brace) to let the stress equalize.

[Jeff Keller]

I'm on my second PT6P because of this exact problem.

The first was a lemon, to say the least. I was on tour going through Detroit, so I stopped in Custom Music Corp and had Kevin Powers(?) look at the horn. He told me that the valves were all warped due to poor manufacturing. He was quite shocked that this passed the inspections. B&S/MW do not make their own valves. It is possible (yet unlikely) that you got a defective valve set.

Someone mentioned Dana Hofer (just outside of Chicago) earlier. I know that the repairmen that have already chimed in, do amazing work. I've personally never had any work done by them. Dana has done all of my work on my piston F and has done an absolutely top notch job. I know that he doesn't advertise, but should. If you need contact information, PM me.

Hope this helps.

J

[MartyNeilan]

I thought of this thread tonight when I had a similar problem after working on BART, which currently uses an early 2165 valveset. I had removed the leadpipe and adjusted the angle of the receiver. After I flushed the horn out and was putting it back together, I had a little difficulty inserting the first piston. I put some more oil on and tried again. It went in but was sticking. I then did the second piston - easy insertion and smooth valve action. I took the horn back in the garage and heated up the area where the leadpipe was soldered across the bell. I heard a "pop!" I heated it some more for the solder to flow freely in the barely larger gap between the leadpipe and bell, and and waited for it to cool. After a few sprays with the cold water bottle, I brought the tuba back in and guess what - the 1st piston went in with no effort and was smooth as glass.
The leadpipe, which directly enters the 1st piston, was putting enough pressure to cause binding. Release the pressure and problem solved. If I hadn't remembered all the possible solutions in this thread, it may have been much more than a five minute fix. (Granted I caused the problem in the first place when I reinstalled the leadpipe.)

[apsapienza]

Angelo,

I had this problem for years. Were you able to rule out the leadpipe putting pressure on your valve section? The bell on a PT6P can "move", taking the leadpipe with it, which can then cause your first valve, or others, to stick. If this is the problem try two things and see what happens:

1. Feel down the inside of the bell to about where the brace that connects the bell to the top bow meet. Is there a raised "bump" there? If yes, the bell might have moved "in" a bit.

2. If you pull your first valve slide away from the piston and hold it there, does the valve move any more freely?

The only thing that fixed my first valve was when I had Alan take off my leadpipe and reseat it. He did a good job as I haven't had a stuck valve since. Well....not counting when I didn't oil it for weeks.

-DC

I actually met with Alan, and he had determined that this was not the problem, and he referenced working on your horn.

Still no progress on my end. Cleaned out my horn myself, with multiple rinses, snaked the slides, and tried a dual oil suggestion I got via PM, and that was working really well for about a week, but even if I clean out the valves and redo the process, I get my sticking valves back within 24 hours. There are a few more names I didn't have before via this thread (thanks guys), so I'm going to start contacting some people to try and get some answers.

Keep em' coming if you've got any ideas.

[imperialbari]

I haven't read through all of the thread, but your description of a cycle betwen cleaning and then getting stuck again makes me ask whether the interior lining of your case or gig bag is a fluffy fabric? Does the receiver get in contact with, or even rub at, that fabric?

It takes no more than one single piece of fiber to harm valve action. I know from at least my baritone and from my euphonium.

The remedy is simple:

Take a tightly woven, not a worn, kitchen cloth and wrap it around the leadpipe, so it doesn't touch or rub against the lining of the bag or case during packing, storing, or unpacking.

Klaus

[bort]

It's been a few weeks... any luck?

[Dan Castillo]

I actually met with Alan, and he had determined that this was not the problem, and he referenced working on your horn.

Still no progress on my end. Cleaned out my horn myself, with multiple rinses, snaked the slides, and tried a dual oil suggestion I got via PM, and that was working really well for about a week, but even if I clean out the valves and redo the process, I get my sticking valves back within 24 hours. There are a few more names I didn't have before via this thread (thanks guys), so I'm going to start contacting some people to try and get some answers.

Keep em' coming if you've got any ideas.

That's a bummer. I hope you get it figured out and whatever is wrong with your horn isn't what happened to Jeff Keller's PT.

[apsapienza]

It's been a few weeks... any luck?

I still am experiencing some issues. Since posting this I've tried just about everything suggested - two chem cleans, my own scrubbing down of the casings and slides with a snake and some Dawn following Bloke's instructions as best I could, replacing the valve guides with delrin guides (courtesy of Martin Wilk, who has been instrumental in my education of the issue, and a wonderful help), my repair guy lapped the valves to the casing and heated up solder joints to see if any of them would pop and relieve tension. As it currently stands, 2nd valve is still being a problem. I only cleaned it just last night, so I'll need some time to play it to see if any other residue gets kicked up and gums up the valve again, but I rinsed it with a snake multiple times last night, so hopefully that's not the issue.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Did you buy this horn new? How old is it?
Mark

[apsapienza]

Hi-
Did you buy this horn new? How old is it?
Mark

The horn was purchased new, spring of 2013.

[E. Green]

"B & S" valves are used not only in their own, but also in Meinl-Weston tubas, both piston and rotary. Later Hirsbrunner tubas also used piston valve manufactured at the "B & S" factory in Markneukirchen. The quality and precision is high, cleanliness is the rule of the day. If the valves remain problematic this is do to improper handing of the instrument or mineral deposits inside the casings and valve guide slots. Most cleaning procedures will not remove such deposits. A brass or bronze wire brush, slightly larger in diameter then the casings and obtainable at tool or auto parts stores will remove such deposits. Run such a brush through the casing a few times: it will be clean and bright. Wipe the casing with a cloth, oil the valve and it should work.

Gene

[tclements]

I just installed a set of MAW valves. They need time to seat and in the break-in period, need a LOT of cleaning, swabbing out of the valve casings and re-oiling. Try that first.

[Q-Sousa]

Did you ever figure this out? I have a new MRP piston C tuba and have the same valve issues.

[tclements]

Call me. We'll talk offline.

[Lee Stofer]

I think I aged about 5 years in the past 10 minutes, reading through this thread and seeing all of the well-intentioned suggestions
posted here. I first encountered this problem over 20 years ago, when a Navy Bandsman brought me a used 2165. He bought it
cheap, knowing that it had problems, then brought it to me to fix them (oh, great. . . .) After going through all of the usual suspects -
cleanliness, regulation, valve guides, doing all the normal things and still coming up with a tuba where neither the valves nor
slides worked well, in quiet desperation I pulled out my torch, and started carefully going over braces and joints, all over the
instrument, in a specific progression. The instrument soon started popping and creaking like a Halloween spook house, and when
it all stopped, I let it cool for several minutes, then play-tested it. The tuba was trouble-free. Either the tuba had suffered a fall/
hit, which threw everything out of alignment, or it may have had problems from the factory.

Having assembled a number of tubas now, I know how difficult it can be to get everything just right, the first time, and I would
not criticize the assemblers on the line. As people have continued to search for the lowest price while wanting quality, something
has to give, and M-W/B&S has worked hard to stay in business despite the onslaught of Asian instruments. 5/4 and 6/4 tubas are
actually more fragile than many smaller tubas, so they must be handled as such. I have noted that much smaller HOJO Meinl-Westons
rarely have any valve problems at all, but are really very sweet in operation, so I think build quality is not so much the problem as
damage in transit and use. There have been some valve problems, but they can be fixed. I consider MAW pistons as the gold standard
of quality, which is why my tubas come equipped new with MAW pistons and a MAW 5th rotor. If your tuba has been properly fitted with
MAW pistons and they are having trouble, the problem is very likely tension on the valve casings caused by distortion within the instrument.

And, I would strongly suggest not trying to take a torch to your instrument at home. Without a lot of experience, you are likely to burn lacquer,
weaken joints, and make the situation worse and more expensive to repair. Yanking and twisting on parts is not suggested, either. I do not
try to do front-end aligments on my car, or do electrical work past changing a light bulb on the car, because I do not have the proper tools,
know-how and experience. My auto mechanic is thankful for that.