Longer Third Valve Slide to Correct Intonation Issue?

[Polkahero]

Hi guys, really liking my Miraphone 191 BBb that I recently purchased but it continues to have an intonation issue that bothers me. Seems to be a common trait with this model from what I've read on here. The D and Db right below the bass clef staff are both extremely sharp. I can almost live with the Db but the D is a problem. Even if I pull the first valve slide out all the way and lip down it's still noticeably sharp. I thought about replacing the first valve slide with a longer one but the bell of the horn doesn't allow for it to be pulled out much more than what it already is.

My other possible solution is to acquire a new third valve slide which does allow for a longer length to be pulled and just use the third valve for the D note. As a bonus this should also take care of the Db. I have to be careful of getting something not too long though so the Gb above these notes becomes too flat as the new slide wouldn't go in as far as the original.

Anyone here done this with their horn before? Is this something I should consult Miraphone about or talk to my local repair shop? Any other solutions other than buying a new horn?!

[Polkahero]

Why not use 3rd valve for D? Then you can simply push in for Gb.

It's still sharp even using the 3rd valve and pulling out the slide.

[Josh Calloway]

I would check the alignment of the rotors and give the tuba a good cleaning. It could be a worn out bumper or something stuck down in a slide causing the problem.

[Polkahero]

Out of curiosity, do you have the same issues on other tubas?

I ask, because I generally play sharp - sometimes as much as 30 cents with some mouthpieces.

No, this is specific to this horn.

[Polkahero]

I would check the alignment of the rotors and give the tuba a good cleaning. It could be a worn out bumper or something stuck down in a slide causing the problem.

I had the horn professionally serviced and cleaned right after I bought it. The intonation was the same before and after the cleaning.

[Polkahero]

Why not use 3rd valve for D? Then you can simply push in for Gb.

It's still sharp even using the 3rd valve and pulling out the slide.

I was told once that German tubas are designed with the use of as few valves as possible for best intonation. I.E. 3rd valve instead of 1-2.

How sharp are we talking about?

Not sure exactly how many cents sharp but my section partner noticed it as well at rehearsal the other night. For short notes it's not bad, but long sustained notes are kind of a problem right now.

[Polkahero]

I've actually tried using only the 3rd valve and it didn't make much difference. Seriously, nobody has replaced a tuning slide with a longer one before?

[roweenie]

Many things can be done (and have been done).

It seems as though you've explored all the troubleshooting avenues.

Soooooooooo,

If it's sharp, it's sharp and that's all there is to it. Stop asking if it's ok to lengthen it (after all, it IS your horn, isn't it?), take the bull by the horns, and fix it. It's really not a hard job for a qualified mechanic.

1) If you don't mind sacrificing your current crook, have a mechanic lengthen the ferrules (the couplings that connect the inner slide to the crook).

2) If you want a second crook, Mirafone parts are somewhat easier to get than some other makes. Once again, it's not a hard job for a good mechanic (this will be considerably more expensive, however).

This tactic can be applied to either the top or bottom (or both) crook(s), depending upon available room, aesthetics, etc.

Good luck.

[bububassboner]

It's still sharp even using the 3rd valve and pulling out the slide.

I was told once that German tubas are designed with the use of as few valves as possible for best intonation. I.E. 3rd valve instead of 1-2.

How sharp are we talking about?

Not sure exactly how many cents sharp but my section partner noticed it as well at rehearsal the other night. For short notes it's not bad, but long sustained notes are kind of a problem right now.

Before you start messing with your horn Take the horn to a tuner and find out how far out EVERY note is on your horn. Since you don't know how many cents and are really just listening to your section mate for all you know he is flat. I always make a tuning chart for every horn that I get. Seeing the problems on paper helps me figure out how to set up my slide.

[iiipopes]

How far out do you pull and set the 3rd valve slide?

[Polkahero]

[/quote]Before you start messing with your horn Take the horn to a tuner and find out how far out EVERY note is on your horn. Since you don't know how many cents and are really just listening to your section mate for all you know he is flat. I always make a tuning chart for every horn that I get. Seeing the problems on paper helps me figure out how to set up my slide.[/quote]

I've got one of those Snark clip-on tuners so I've already confirmed these two notes are sharp compared to the other notes on the horn. It doesn't measure exactly how many cents, however.

It's readily apparent to my own ears when playing with the ensemble the D is quite sharp.

[Polkahero]

How far out do you pull and set the 3rd valve slide?

Not much, maybe an inch.

[CA Transplant]

How far out do you pull and set the 3rd valve slide?

Not much, maybe an inch.

How much can you pull it out? An inch isn't much, and you may have to pull it further to get that note in tune. Working with your tuner, get the note in tune and study how far you have to pull it. I see guys pulling slides a lot farther than that on tubas for individual notes to make them right.

[tclements]

This is EXTREMELY unusual for Mirafones. I would suggest you get a local pro play the horn to make sure it's ok. This is VERY odd....

[iiipopes]

How far out do you pull and set the 3rd valve slide?

Not much, maybe an inch.

How much can you pull it out? An inch isn't much, and you may have to pull it further to get that note in tune. Working with your tuner, get the note in tune and study how far you have to pull it. I see guys pulling slides a lot farther than that on tubas for individual notes to make them right.

My thought exactly. On three-valve horns, especially souzys, first of all, the 3rd valve slide is made long to begin with. Second, we pull the slide so that 2+3 is slightly flat and 1+3 is slightly sharp so we can lip either way. I suggest you pull and set the 3rd valve slide on your tuba to get the offeding notes in tune, if you have enough pull to do so. If you don't have enough to pull, then I would contact Miraphone about getting you a longer 3rd valve slide. On my 186, the 3rd valve slide is also about an inch out, which is common, but on my tuba, it is the 4th valve slide that is acting like your 3rd valve slide. On an older BBb 186, the 4th valve circuit is tucked up interior to the bugle, so there isn't much room to pull. I have my 4th valve slide pulled almost all the way out, to keep 4th valve notes and 4+2 in tune and 4+1 doesn't need much of pull then.

[Polkahero]

I was testing it again tonight and even pulling the 3rd valve slide all the way out it wasn't enough. I compared the Gb's (only other notes I use 3rd valve on other than Db) and the slide needs to be an inch out to be in tune. I figure if I can get a new slide (or modify the existing one) that is one inch longer it should be enough to get the D and Db in tune and still be short enough so the Gb's aren't flat (with the new slide pushed in all the way).

Other than contacting Miraphone, any other places that stock parts?

[Donn]

The way I read it, there's no tuning problem with G/Gb (4th partial I assume), so the slide is long enough there. He steadfastly maintains that the slide is not long enough for 3rd partial D/Db, his story holding up to rigorous cross examination.

I was told once that German tubas are designed with the use of as few valves as possible for best intonation. I.E. 3rd valve instead of 1-2.

How does the math add up on that one? Whatever they think, the 3rd valve should be long enough to play Db in tune, which will be longer than needed for D - and the 1st valve should be long enough to play D in tune, in combination with 2. It's up to the player whether they'd actually be tuned that way, but the tuba should give you the option.

[Polkahero]

The way I read it, there's no tuning problem with G/Gb (4th partial I assume), so the slide is long enough there. He steadfastly maintains that the slide is not long enough for 3rd partial D/Db, his story holding up to rigorous cross examination.

That is correct.

[Untersatz]

I would get a quality tuner & verify results before making ANY modifications to a horn based on results from one of those little round Snark tuners (if that's what you have). I tried one of those Snark tuners & was NOT impressed I ended up buying a quality Korg tuner & have never been happier!

[Polkahero]

I would get a quality tuner & verify results before making ANY modifications to a horn based on results from one of those little round Snark tuners (if that's what you have). I tried one of those Snark tuners & was NOT impressed I ended up buying a quality Korg tuner & have never been happier!

I got access to a Korg guitar/bass tuner (only tunes certain notes like D) and it mirrored the results of the Snark.