Wessex R&D - Over the Shoulder Saxhorn (OTS)

[Wyvern]

During my trip to USA for Wessex to exhibit at US Army workshop, I visited Gettysburg national park museum and saw the Over the Shoulder (OTS) horns from the Civil War including most impressive the E-flat bass saxhorn pictured.

I picked up a superb book in the shop with plenty of interesting pictures of saxhorns called 'A Pictorial History of Civil War Era Musical Instruments & Military Bands' by Robert Garofalo & Mark Elrod (ISBN 0-933126-60-3).

I was wondering afterwards if there is sufficient interest in these OTS saxhorns for Wessex to make modern reproductions like we have already done for tornistertuba, ophicleide and sackbut?

So this post is to get discussion and feedback. If you don't wish to post to thread, then feel free to email Jonathan@Wessex-Tubas.com" target="_blank or PM me direct.

Assuming there is interest, I have some questions;

1) Would you prefer bass in Eb or BBb? It seems most civil war bass saxhorns were Eb, but BBb was not unknown.

2) Would you want horn just over the shoulder, or with exchangeable alternative leadpipe to play upright? Seems like some were later converted to that configuration.

3) Would just an upright bass saxhorn also be of interest? I have such 19th century example in Eb already available.

4) Does anyone have OTS bass saxhorn in either Eb or BBb (not necessary in working order) they would be prepared to loan or sell to act as template for new model?

5) In what pitch/s do civil war reenactment bands perform (A=440hz or higher)?

Please contact me if you would be seriously interested in buying a OTS bass saxhorn if this project advances (no promises). If this goes beyond idea very much depends on responses for me to judge if economically viable to advance towards production.

PS Sorry if some think this should be in sponsors forum, but I want to engage in discussion which sponsors forum does not allow

[bisontuba]

Jonathan-
I just forwarded this to my friend Mark Elrod (author) who may contact you with his thoughts.
Mark

[T. J. Ricer]

With the upright configuration it could be a tuba player-friendly ophicleide replacement, like this:
http://www.musikhaus-syhre.de/html/body_ophikleide.html

Perhaps even cimbasso-like enough to get the Italian opera conductors off my back for my little Yamaha F sounding "too German".

-T. J.

[aqualung]

http://1stbrigadeband.org/" target="_blank

I have sent a link to this thread to Dave Woolpert, the BM of this large CW band who have a large collection of CW brass.

[David Richoux]

I have a Rob Stewart EEb OTS (4 rotor) that he made for me about 25 or so years ago. I use it very infrequently but don't want to sell it right now. My experience with it is: awkward and dangerous in parade formation, difficult to balance after a few minutes of playing, hard to actually hear the bell tones (it is so far a way from the ear!) and the historically accurate lack of water keys was a big problem - I had some added afterwards. A BBb could exaggerate the balance problem.

If there was an active Civil War recreation band closer to me than Sacramento I might have used it more. Nice to look at, though. It is obvious why they are obsolete!

[kilt_lifter]

I don't think they always practice in SF, but there's always these guys: http://fortpointbrassband.org/" target="_blank

Met one of their trumpeters at the Alameda Antique Fair and he had a raft of old saxhorns and other unusual brass up for sale. Fun curiosities, but I can't adopt EVERY stray

-Isaac

[bisontuba]

Jonathan-
Talked to Elrod--you actually met him last week at the Conference! Mark has the largest collection of OTS horns on the planet--just sent you his contact info--check your email.
Mark

[Ace]

Jonathan, you may have seen this site which shows some interesting configurations.
I especially like the "Tear Drop".

http://1stbrigadeband.org/index.php/col ... figuations" target="_blank

Best wishes on your OTS planning and possible production.

Ace

[scottw]

I do play in a Civil War band [becksband.com], but we currently have 2 period saxhorns, not OTS. I have tried them and they are indeed awkward and quite difficult to hear your own playing. They are terrible for concert. If your band is leading a troop, then they have their niche. I would think, though, that there is a market--albeit a limited one--for good-quality reproduction Eb bell-up saxhorns. There just aren't enough of them available and affordable for those of us who use them. Due to the 150 year old nature of these horns, most have disappeared and the rest seem to be in collections which rarely get played.
A Bb tuba/saxhorn is almost unheard of from this period, so I wouldn't waste time and effort to develop one.
Perhaps Paul Maybery will weigh in, as he is a frequent poster here and is a foremost expert in this area.
Good luck with this and let us know what you decide to do?
Scottw

[David Richoux]

I don't think they always practice in SF, but there's always these guys: http://fortpointbrassband.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank

Met one of their trumpeters at the Alameda Antique Fair and he had a raft of old saxhorns and other unusual brass up for sale. Fun curiosities, but I can't adopt EVERY stray

-Isaac

I know several of the band members - that is the group that mostly rehearses in Sacramento, unless there is another one! Maybe I would have done it 20 years ago, but I am stretched too thin now playing in 5 other bands.

[J.Harris]

I played briefly in a re-enactment group and have played an OTS horn. Can't say as I'd really want to own one. Very awkward. I think the idea was to have the band march in front of the troops with the horns pointing backwards so the troops following could hear. If a few musicians were plucked off by the enemy...well, they're expendable aren't they? Anyways, if you're soliciting opinions on what you might want to develop next, I'd rather see a nice piston F or front action piston non-compensating E flat. I think the market (U.S. anyway) would be more supportive of those types of instruments.

[Wyvern]

I'd rather see a nice piston F or front action piston non-compensating E flat.

The Eb is already in the works being developed in collaboration with Sam Gnagey. I tried the development prototype last week and it is great playing tuba. Expect to be out later this year.

Thank you everyone for the feedback on OTS saxhorn so far. A few leads for me to follow, but do keep ideas coming.

[Three Valves]

I played briefly in a re-enactment group and have played an OTS horn. Can't say as I'd really want to own one. Very awkward. I think the idea was to have the band march in front of the troops with the horns pointing backwards so the troops following could hear.

Indeed. I'd rather play a helicon/sousa BEHIND the troops.

[scottw]

5) In what pitch/s do civil war reenactment bands perform (A=440hz or higher)?

I somewhat doubt period instruments are at A440 as that was not established as the international pitch standard until the 1930's.

Perhaps high AND low pitch slides?

We generally try to tune @A-445 as a compromise between the period instruments. Let's just say my [long] tuning slide has never been out more than 1/2" since I have played it.

[imperialbari]

Are there period photos of CW-era OTS-instruments being marched in parades?

Where were the basses placed in the formation?

Klaus

[GC]

I traded my side-valve Eb contrabass for a over-the-shoulder during the second half of the first Civil War concert I did. It played okay, but it was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I've ever played. The guy I borrowed it from was overjoyed to play a more normal horn and didn't particularly want to take it back when I said I'd had enough.

[scottw]

I traded my side-valve Eb contrabass for a over-the-shoulder during the second half of the first Civil War concert I did. It played okay, but it was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I've ever played. The guy I borrowed it from was overjoyed to play a more normal horn and didn't particularly want to take it back when I said I'd had enough.

Say amen!

[Wyvern]

I traded my side-valve Eb contrabass for a over-the-shoulder during the second half of the first Civil War concert I did. It played okay, but it was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I've ever played. The guy I borrowed it from was overjoyed to play a more normal horn and didn't particularly want to take it back when I said I'd had enough.

Say amen!

So I take it you would prefer an upright saxhorn?

[Timswisstuba]

So I take it you would prefer an upright saxhorn? [/quote]

I honestly don't think there is any market for a Chinese upright saxhorn.

[Worth]

How about a decent Chinese CC helicon or sousaphone