GC wrote:I traded my side-valve Eb contrabass for a over-the-shoulder during the second half of the first Civil War concert I did. It played okay, but it was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I've ever played. The guy I borrowed it from was overjoyed to play a more normal horn and didn't particularly want to take it back when I said I'd had enough.
As long as people are making requests, mark me down for a B&H Imperial euph clone: 14.50/16.52mm bore, 279mm bell, but with the Dolce Cantabile's intonation?
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Don't take legal advice from a lawyer on the Internet. I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer.
Looking Back: Over the Shoulder Tuba, featured in the current issue of TUBA Journal: http://www.iteaonline.org/index.php" target="_blank
(scroll down a bit for a preview; online version of article accessible to members)
Back 20 years ago when I played in the Heritage Brass in Dallas, I would have loved a period-looking tuba. I would have preferred it to be pitched in F (nobody will know except me and my fingers). But even though the OTS saxhorns were popular, they are truly difficult to manage. Those who are listening to re-enactment ensembles are expecting a proper appearance but they are listening with Canadian Brass ears. It has to deliver the musical goods without commanding supreme abilities from the player. That was my argument when we were offered the opportunity to borrow some period instruments in the collection (or potentially in the collection) at Hill College in Texas. Looking correct will only please the purists, but those who come to reenactments won't want to have to stop their ears.
I'd be just as happy with a Wieprecht-style F tuba, which is hardly bigger than a euphonium. Perinet or rotary valves would be fine (versus Berlinerpumpen), if the profile and finish of the instrument matched something of that vintage (particularly the lack of much bell flare). Even the front-action 3+2 valve arrangement would work.
Some of the groups around these parts (a little over an hour south of Gettysburg) are extremely picky about accuracy, but I think it's a little silly to be too picky. After all, Civil War soldiers were young, sick, and nearly starving most of the time, not like most reenactors who are middle-aged, chubby, and pink. Period clothes, spectacles, and accessories can't change that. Sure, I (and everyone else in the group) can have a pair of glasses made of the type used by the well-heeled in the 1860's, but nobody in a military unit band of that era would have owned them.
There's a fellow in these parts who brings an OTS saxhorn to TubaChristmas events. I don't envy him, and I make sure I'm not sitting behind him.
Rick "suspecting only the North had any consistency of instrumentation" Denney
It seems to me that the demand would be pretty small for these. We have a historic brass band festival near the Twin Cities every year, and I always try to attend it. Bands vary in their instruments, of course, but my favorites are ones using actual period instruments. Most of them actually play very well, to boot.
Given the small number of bands, the various pitches played at, and other factors, I'd think it would be difficult to produce a modern OTS instrument that would please very many. I think any such horn would have to be playable both at high pitch, low pitch and pitches in between. If I were designing such an instrument, I think I'd try to make it playable as high as A=455, with a set of slides, crooks, or whatever to pitch them down to A=440. Sounds expensive, though.
Even then, unless it had the genuine look of the period instruments, the period players probably would not accept it. There's one group, the name of which I can't remember, that played outstandingly well on period instruments. I talked to the guy who was playing Eb cornet on a lovely old instrument with rotary valves. I asked him about it, and he said that he got it relatively inexpensively, but spent a great deal of money having it restored to perfect playing condition.
The period instrument guys are unlikely to be interested in a modern equivalent. They're willing to spend whatever is needed to restore a period horn. It's their hobby, and hobbyists tend to be fanatical about authenticity.
CA Transplant wrote:It seems to me that the demand would be pretty small for these.
Consider the fact that you are talking to a man that brought back the Ophicleide!!
Yes, but period Ophicleides are scarce. There are tons of OTS saxhorns out there. Well, not tons, I guess. Lots of old brass instruments got melted down in WWI and WWII during the scrap metal drives. But there are still more than enough of them for the period instrument folks.
CA Transplant wrote:It seems to me that the demand would be pretty small for these.
There are tons of OTS saxhorns out there. Well, not tons, I guess. Lots of old brass instruments got melted down in WWI and WWII during the scrap metal drives. But there are still more than enough of them for the period instrument folks.
Is that a fact? I beg to differ. The price point on period instruments that actually come up for sale is quite high, indicative of the real scarcity. There are still instruments from the early 20th century that are relatively cheap, but anything pre-1870 or so is either in the hands of large collectors or long-since melted down. When one does come up for sale, they are quickly grabbed up, almost regardless of condition.
At Scott's suggestion I will chime in with my thoughts and experiences working with these instruments for 35 plus years. I know Scott well from college days and have the highest respect for him.
I have played a Stewart repro Eb OTS. I thought it a remarkably fine instrument.
Played even and in tune - top to bottom. In Minnesota, we had a set of 5 (Eb & Bb Cornet, Alto, Tenor and Bass.) Robb's workmanship was flawless and the ensemble of horns was a treat to play. We never really marched but played in concert shells or proper stages most of the time. Even in unsheltered venues it was not difficult at all to hear one's self. But we were all top professionals, accustomed to chamber playing and all had ears like radar.
If I may digress for a few lines here: I have also played on a number of authentic instruments, many of which had all sorts of issues and quirks. My thoughts were that a bandsmen in 1860 was not playing on a 150 year old horn but a rather new one. For me it was a kick to play on the oldie, and imagine oneself almost in a time travel scenario. I cannot deny that mystic in playing old authentic horns. Heck we do it every summer now (for 30 years) with the Yankee Brass Band. No repros allowed.
But now back to the repro idea. For musical reasons I would much rather play a repro - if it were made to authentic specifications. But here is my pet peeve. All the repros I have played or seen were made from modern parts and as such a much heavier gauge of metal, lending them to sound much more like modern instruments.
For my tastes, that which sets the old horns apart is their timbre, to which the thin metal, I believe, is the major contributing factor.
The 150 years old horns have also hardened considerably and that also affects the timbre and response. I do believe they were not that "work hardened" and brittle when they were new ands in the hands and chops of their original players. However, that being said, manufacturing processes were different back then when it came to forming bells, tubing and bending crooks. Depending on annealing, there could be huge differences from one horn to another from the same work bench.
A rather significant difference occurs between nickel or german silver and brass instruments. Since the terms 'brighter' and 'darker' are rather ambiguous these days, let's just say there is a difference.
OTS or Front-facing is of course and option. In the Dodworth manual, they mention that the OTS are for marching only. I suppose if a re-enactement group wants to recreate the marching image, then it is totally appropriate. I have found though that the OTS with at least one less bend in the body of the horn seems to allow for a rather open and easy response.
Regarding the BBb bass. It is documented that it did not appear in use in bands in this country until the 1880s when Harvey Dodworth introduced in NYC, so it is historically inaccurate to have such a repro in a period Civil War band.
Were I to make repros and had all sorts of resources, I would of course copy the finest instruments available, (IMHO - that would be Isaac Fiske) pay scrupulous attention to metal gauge and alloy, and with the aid of modern physics and intonation understanding, perhaps look at the acoustics of the instrument and make whatever adjustments that would help the intonation issue. Authenticity does not mean bad intonation.
Several issues factor in with modern musicians playing period horns, even with the best pros out there with very keen ears. To just assume a modern player will automatically adjust to high pitch in a day or two is laughable. Hence most groups that I have heard, all have pitch issues, much more than the same players on their modern state-of-the-art horns. The instruments also have sharp and flat partials that seem to be even more exaggerated than on modern horns.
To address Jonathan at Wessex, I believe it would be valuable to create a complete set of OTS or concert/upright horns, built along a similar design much like the older manufactures. That would be Eb sop. Bb Sop, Eb Alto, Bb Tenor, Bb Baritone, Bb Bass and Eb Bass. Remembering also that these would be STRING action rotaries, not mechanical. I am not address the economy of this, nor the market for sales. It is limited, that is a given. The benefit would be in having a matched set or 'consort'
There is a company in Germany that has addressed some of the smaller cornet, keyed bugle instruments - "Voight."
The pitch is also an issue. High pitch was in vogue for bands of the mid-19th century.
How high? A good question. Perhaps up to 35 cents. When the lowering of the tuning pitch is attempted, it usually results in throwing off the intonation of the individual horn and opens a pandora's box.
Well Scottie, how did I do? Just some thoughts from someone who has a ton of experience with this eccentric but charming instrument.
PM
Wessex 5/4 CC "Wyvern"
Wessex 4/4 F "Berg"
Wessex Cimbasso F
Mack Euphonium
Mack Bass Trombone
Conn 5V Double Bell Euphonium (casually for sale to an interested party)
Rick Denney wrote:
I'd be just as happy with a Wieprecht-style F tuba, which is hardly bigger than a euphonium. Perinet or rotary valves would be fine (versus Berlinerpumpen), if the profile and finish of the instrument matched something of that vintage (particularly the lack of much bell flare). Even the front-action 3+2 valve arrangement would work.
Rick "suspecting only the North had any consistency of instrumentation" Denney
As is pretty normal, I agree with Rick...
One of these types of horns: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58682" target="_blank
Is more interesting to me than an over the shoulder instrument. I would think you could "get away with" this type of horn as a period tuba, ophicleide-substitute, and even as a cimbasso/tuba hybrid for opera work.
Or not...
-T. J.
Thomas J. Ricer, DMA
Royal Hawaiian Band - University of Hawaii at Manoa - Yamaha Performing Artist
Spotted an OTS horn at my first tuba Christmas, have wanted one ever since. Having one in B-flat with improved tuning and playing characteristics would be great. Modern metallurgy and machining tolerances would have you miles ahead of a vintage horn. Having it convert to an upright would be a plus, more uses for an unusual horn. I think one would be cool for outdoor quintet stuff. I'd be willing to try one!
Mtrhed
Keizer,OR
1912-14 Martin BB 6/4 rotary valve top-action
Conn BB 21J -F/A 4+1 conversion "Conn-Zilla"
2014 Wessex "Mighty Midget"
1918 York BB Model #33
King BB 1241 w/both bells
Caravelle B Commuter
Bruscher B Helicon
