Playing BBb tuba in at Treble Clef World!

[imperialbari]

You want reputable edition houses putting their reputations at risk?

Not likely to happen.

Or you want these houses issuing horn parts in F along with those in Eb? Plus the whole low brass section parts in bass clef along with the standard treble clef parts.

Please calculate the increased prices of your music acquisitions. And then ask your band treasurer whether he agrees.

Klaus

[roweenie]

Klaus,

Seriously, how much more would it cost to add TWO parts (E flat and B flat bass )?

In my 30+ years, I've NEVER seen a horn player (already familiar with transposition) or a trombone player (reading the part as though it's tenor clef) get tripped up on traditional brass band parts.

My argument is strictly pragmatic - get it done well, and as easily as possible.

If it's a choice between parts that can be read, as opposed to parts that can't be read, I think the extra (?) cost is money well spent, don't you? Also, shouldn't the publisher want to accommodate as many different customers as possible, making for additional sales?

If your argument is that you believe American tuba players should conform to a European concept of music notation, just come out and say it.

[imperialbari]

That is what I suggested somebody phoning me in 1996 wanting me to rewrite parts for a band foreign to me. Something I don't do, unless this process brings the music into a new context.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

Sorry that it is necessary to restate that transposing parts involves much more than a couple of mouse clicks....

Sorry, Klaus. But.... you are dead wrong on this one. There is no such thing as 'engraving' any more. I use Finale and can create any part known to man with a couple of mouse clicks once the part is entered by any one of several means including scanning. Yes... scanning is not perfect but DOES work to the degree that it only takes a few minutes to correct minor mistakes.

[PMeuph]

Not relevant, but every time we discuss engraving I go back to watch that video and admire the work being done.

_____

I know publishers don't generally do parts in other keys, but I know for a fact that composers who self publish are often quite willing to transpose the part if requested. Brass band composer Pete Meechan is one of those guys, he onc generously re tweaked parts from one of his pieces to be played by brass band and junior high wind band...

As for the scanning part, if the part was typed with sibelius or finale, it's pretty much painless.

[roughrider]

Thank you for all of the replies to this. I am going to learn how to do this the old fashioned way as I have time before we will be playing any gigs. Thanks again!

[Untersatz]

so you want the whole low brass section parts in bass clef along with the standard treble clef parts?

Hmm.......interesting perspective. Here in the U.S. the standard low brass music IS written in bass clef & also in concert pitch (with the exception of TC euphonium). We also don't learn to play Eb tubas in grade school or learn trumpet fingerings or transposing treble clef music, because we play Bb non-transposing instruments. I myself started on trombone in 5th grade & in 7th grade switched to tuba. So for nearly 40 years now, I have lived in the Bb non-transposing, bass clef world for the instruments that I play. To say that the treble clef, transposing, trumpet fingering world on a tuba is foreign to me, would be an HUGE understatement!

[eupher61]

Brass band is not an American-centric scene. The tradition is long established, like it or not. If you can't read the part, don't join the band.

And, yes, it has a lot to do with being a better musician. Knowhow is always good.

[pgym]

Seriously, how much more would it cost to add TWO parts (E flat and B flat bass )?

Let me ask it this way: how much would someone have to pay YOU to transcribe the parts, proof read and correct spacing, range, and orthographic (accidentals, double sharpes/flats, marking shifts and collisions, etc.) issues, print and insert them into the full set, for the 2-3% of customers who want them?

[roweenie]

Seriously, how much more would it cost to add TWO parts (E flat and B flat bass )?

Let me ask it this way: how much would someone have to pay YOU to transcribe the parts, proof read and correct spacing, range, and orthographic (accidentals, double sharpes/flats, marking shifts and collisions, etc.) issues, print and insert them into the full set, for the 2-3% of customers who want them?

Does your question apply to making the part AT TIME OF PUBLICATION, or AFTER THE FACT?

If the parts are done *after the fact*, two parts, each approximately 4 pages, I'd say about an hour and a half, maybe two, if they are very complicated parts (and having edited parts myself, this is a generous estimate). Cost in time and labor, maybe $100-150.

But then again, it's a different proposition to transpose a part after the fact, which is much more time consuming, as opposed to making the part at the time of publication.

Editing a part *at time of publication* (which is what we really are talking about here) takes CONSIDERABLY less time than the figure stated above.

(In truth of fact, you would really have to do only the BB flat part, as most American tuba players I've encountered pick up the E flat part pretty quickly, so cut that figure above in half).

And furthermore, where do you get your figure of 2 or 3%? Can you back that up with facts? The truth of the matter is that the English brass band publishers have been steadily adding bass clef BB flat tuba parts to their editions over time, so I'm not so sure those figures are reflected in what's really going on.

What it does say is that there is a booming brass band market here, and it's obviously worth the "trouble" to get a piece of it.

[roweenie]

Brass band is not an American-centric scene. The tradition is long established, like it or not. If you can't read the part, don't join the band.

This is an arrogant and ignorant statement.

Maybe the great literature from non - English speaking minds shouldn't be translated into English for us to enjoy, too.

And maybe the Bible shouldn't have been translated from Greek and Aramaic, either.

P.S. - I'd like to see you tell Mr. _______ _______ (you fill in the blanks), Big Shot World Famous Orchestral Tuba Player, that he can't play in your band because he can't read B flat transposition.

[Untersatz]

I think by now, everyone understands the tradition of B.B.B. music being written in treble clef (and the reasons for it) albeit archaic & completely obsolete in today's world, but I DO understand & appreciate tradition. It would be a nice "option" to have the BBb tuba parts also written in bass clef & in concert pitch, just like the bass trombone (for an instrument that normally plays this type of music in almost all other settings). What bothers me most is that the OP is dealing with German band sheet music, but since it is from Europe, must we all conform to the B.B.B. way of doing things?
This issue also works both ways. I have read a number of concerns by (mainly European players) stating that they learned to play cornet in school & then on to Eb tuba & then on to B.B.B. and later in life, cannot understand why the rest of the tuba world reads from bass clef music written in concert pitch.
It would be nice if we could bridge the gap here. We obviously have a large number of treble clef reading B.B.B. tuba players out there along, with the rest of the tuba world in bass clef concert pitch. How difficult would it really be to include both parts? I DO read treble clef (piano, organ etc.) but when I see a written "C" in the music, in my mind, I'm going to play a "C" NOT a "Bb"

[eeflattuba]

Thank you for all of the replies to this. I am going to learn how to do this the old fashioned way as I have time before we will be playing any gigs. Thanks again!

As a good friend of"roughrider" i can assure you that he will learn to read treble clef in short order.As an older gentleman like myself i can assure you that he is a fine tuba player with a strong work ethic.Last year he taught himslf to play cc tuba, with little or no assistance.Technology is great but sometimes the "old fashioned way" works to.

[pgym]

If the parts are done *after the fact*, two parts, each approximately 4 pages, I'd say about an hour and a half, maybe two, if they are very complicated parts (and having edited parts myself, this is a generous estimate). Cost in time and labor, maybe $100-150.

I see.

Obviously, a hack amateur.

So let me ask this: how much would you charge to transcribe it to a PROFESSIONAL standard?

P.S. - I'd like to see you tell Mr. _______ _______ (you fill in the blanks), Big Shot World Famous Orchestral Tuba Player, that he can't play in your band because he can't read B flat transposition.

Mr. _______ _______ would be a hack amateur rather than a Big Shot World Famous Orchestral Tuba Player if he couldn't read anything thrown at him, including Bb Treble OR Bb Bass transposition.

[roughrider]

Thank you eeflat tuba! These comments coming from you mean a great deal to me. You have been a fabulous player for a long time and I really appreciated your help with that CC tuba! Used to like coming early to Choral Society on Tuesday nights so I could hear you warm up in the basement of the church!

[roweenie]

Pgym,

Where do you come from that copyists make more than $75-100 per hour?

Believe it or not, not everyone makes $300+ per hour, you know.

And since you've decided to make this personal, how do you know the quality of my work? Probably no more than I know the quality of your work in a courtroom (or wherever it is that you practice law).

In addition, when was the last time you took a symphony orchestra audition and were required to read ANYTHING in B flat transposition? There have been SEVERAL high quality tuba players that have played in my band that have gone on to successful careers in different organisations (some REALLY big ones) that couldn't read A NOTE of B flat transposed music. Just because you've got great credentials as a symphony player (the Tubenet "gold-standard") doesn't automatically mean you can play everything and anything in any clef or transposition put in front of you.

[hup_d_dup]

Not relevant, but every time we discuss engraving I go back to watch that video and admire the work being done.

Thanks for posting this beautiful video.

Over the years, as desktop publishers assumed some of the responsibilities of plate makers, the term "engraving" came to be a loose way of describing the general quality of the editing work which is now being done on computers. This video clearly shows how this editing expertise was once included in traditional plate making, a craft that involved not only mechanical expertise, but deep knowledge of the subject matter and a high level of aesthetic sensibility.

Hup

[swillafew]

First time I sat in a "British Band" I was holding an F tuba and looking at the Bb part. I thought it would be tough, and I just looked at the first note, thought about the elementary trumpet books I used to teach out of years before, and it was no problem at all. When I had another chance to try it with a BBb, I found an Arban book for trumpet to prime the pump with a good result.

[Uncle Markie]

For what it's worth -

The easiest way to deal with B-flat transposition is to borrow a trumpet instruction book and spend some time with it. The Arban book for trumpet has a lot of stuff in it that does not appear in the trombone edition that's good for anyone to know.

I studied with Don Butterfield who was one of the busiest recording studio tuba players in New York. I also spent time with Joe Tarto. He pushed transposition and solfeggio with me, as did the old Italian bandleaders I worked for. Plus we changed keys all the time in the banjo bands (without charts of course). After I went into the business, and started hanging around woodwind doublers, and orchestral trumpeters and french hornists who could transpose pretty much anything at will I realized that was a skill I had better acquire. The old rule of the radio/television players was that to stay employed you should be able to read anything on anything you owned - in any key the producers wanted - at sight. Sightreading itself has become a lost skill with the decline of commercial music. Symphonic repertoire while not completely static is pretty much the same year after year. They don't change the keys of Die Meistersinger; on jingle dates and industiral shows we sure did for anything we had to play. Librarians on traveling Broadway shows send duplicate books ahead to the next town because they cannot depend upon sightreading skills good enough to get the show together in one rehearsal day. String players as a group seem to be among the worst sightreaders for some reason. Probably because today everybody goes to conservatory to play in a symphony orchestra and versatility is downplayed.

Written music notation was probably a pain in Mozart's *** too - but until somebody comes up with a better method of communicating the parts and structure of an otherwise abstract musical idea this is the system we use.

All my baritone horn/euphonium students play in both treble and bass clefs; more advanced players learn tenor clef, alto clef and how to pick out their parts from hymn books and vocal sheet music.

The exercises that fall easily under your fingers won't really do you much good. The knucklebusters make you improve. Same thing goes for different clefs, and unfamiliar keys. Widen your horizons. Always learn something new.

Personally I was not a "natural" when it came to this - I had to work hard to pick up the pace. It was worth it too.

I encourage anyone to pick up as many musicianly skills as they can; it has the potential to create more opportunties for a more versatile musician and makes the intrument itself more practical in more non-traditional settings. I always remember the tuba parts in Henry Mancini's book that said "quasi horn" over the staff - and he wasn't kidding!

Mark Heter