King 1241 or old style 2341 3rd Valve

[Full Metal Ratchet]

So I've got two Kings, a pretty 1241 (ok, a 10 footer viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32776&start=624#p385286) and an ugly, corroded-valved 2341 (it broke the camera). Of course the ugly one plays the best, so I was trying to figure out why. I checked the valve alignment on the pretty one and found out it has two 1st valves (1,2,1,4). I took the 3rd valve from the ugly one to compare and it is clocked about 3/32 differently. I put the 3rd valve from the ugly horn into the pretty horn and aligned it. To my pleasure, it plays noticeably better, especially in the low to mid range.

So, does anyone have a spare King 1241 or old style 2341 3rd valve with intact plating? I will trade my extra 1st valve + cash for a reasonable price. I only need the valve portion, not the button, stem, or top cap. Are new valves available? Are new valves any good? Can I trust anyone in Tallahassee to fit a new valve, or should I build my own honing block to fit it myself. I am handy with machining and dealing with precision assembly.

Mine looks like this:

[Dan Schultz]

Valves 1 and 3 for a King 1240/41 2340/41 that has the main slide after the valve section are the same. You might have a sousaphone #1 piston. This is an easy mistake to make and often happens when school horns are repaired and parts are switched.

Those pistons are still available from both Allied and Conn/Selmer.

[Full Metal Ratchet]

Neither of the two 1st valves from the horn line up in the 3rd casing, but they both line up in the first. That means my horn at least uses dedicated 1st and 3rd valves. If one was sousaphone I would think one would fit both and the other would fit neither. If they were both sousaphone, neither would fit anything. Maybe my horn had major surgery in the past or is just defective with an offset groove.

I don't have enough adjustment to offset the guide the full amount. Maybe I can relocate the hole. It might be the easiest solution. Any pitfalls to look out for?

[Dan Schultz]

Re-reading your posts.... IF the 'pretty one' you are referring to is the silver one with the detachable bell... it is indeed a post 1980 2341 tuba and, by the books, the first and third pistons are interchangeable.

How are you determining that the ports are in-line? With a borescope? Are the numbers stamped on top of the pistons 'factory' made?

Just relocating the guide hole might fix the open bugle ports but might throw off the tuning circuit ports.

[Full Metal Ratchet]

Used a mirror to look down adjacent casing. I have access to a bore scope if I need one.

Valves don't look original. Is there a way to know for sure? Stamped 1, 2, 1, 3/4/4. Yes 4th valve has 3 stamps. No serial on valves themselves. I can see what looks like honing marks (very faint) if that is a clue.

The serial on the casing indicates the valve cluster to be mid 1930s. Could be from another horn. There is a number 158534 and off to the left of that number is the number 36.

[Dan Schultz]

That number '36' plus fifty gives you the year of manufacture... 1986. With the style knuckles on the valve set... this is definitely NOT from the 30's.

I think King had quit stamping serial numbers of pistons by this date.

I'd venture a guess you have some Reynolds or Olds pistons in that horn.

[Full Metal Ratchet]

That number '36' plus fifty gives you the year of manufacture...

Good to know that tip! I didn't see it on the King serial page. That would make it a UMI horn, right?

I will do more checking and double checking over the weekend with valves and get back to you with results.

[Dan Schultz]

To properly interpret HN White/King serial numbers you need to read all the way to the bottom of the page: http://www.horn-u-copia.net/serial/Kinglist.html

Yes... being made in 1986 would put the horn into the 'post-cyborg' era.

[Full Metal Ratchet]

Ok, I ran a borescope through the horn from the leadpipe as well as the main tuning slide of both horns and came to some conclusions.

1. Dan was right.

2. For the silver horn, I was mistaken about swapping 3rd valve to the 1st casing and the ports lining up, but not lining up in the 3rd casing. The inlet bugle port doesn't line up with the bad valve, but the outlet bugle port does. When I was using the mirror, I was viewing through the 2nd valve casing ports so I was looking at 1st valve outlet (ok no matter which valve) and 3rd valve inlet (misaligned with bad valve). I was also mistaken on 1st valve not lining up in 3rd casing. I must have got them mixed up when I laid them down. Having a toddler in the room makes it hard to keep track of what's going on.

3. The brass horn's 1st and 3rd valves (known good, serial matching) interchange between themselves, and the silver horn's 1st and 3rd casings. Everything lines up from any position and direction no matter how they are mixed. King 2341 models do have identical 1st and 3rd valves

4. After closer inspection, the silver horn's 3rd valve is not original, but the others are. The clue was in how the bottom of the valve was made, honing marks vs none visible on the others, and the fact that it was perfectly clean beneath the felt at the stem. I'm guessing it is for a King sousaphone since it appears to be a new part and the inlet port is clocked differently.

Thanks for the guidance. I'll be dropping my horn off at the shop in the morning.

Attached pic of offending valve.

[Dan Schultz]

Thanks for the follow-up. I've been fooled by the same situation.

I actually moved the key on a Marzan once because I was 'looking in the wrong hole'!