Fiber Sousaphones - Conn 22K or 36K or others?

[SousiOusi]

Dear Tuba players

First I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Nic a german trombone player, used to play in a kind of Marching/Pep Band (Guggenmusik, German/Swiss Carneval).

I played trombone the last 4 years but fell in love the last few months with sousaphones. I like the power and support you can create for the whole band with these instruments.

At the moment I'm looking forward to buy a used sousaphone in the next time. Often the older Conns (22K and 36K) are mentioned as "golden standard". I got an offer for a 22K in good condition as well as an offer for a 36K for about the same price like the 22K.

The 22K got its service, looks good but used and is about an hour driveway away from my location. The 36K is comepletely restored and looks like new but about 4 hours driveway away. Both cost about the same (1500€)

I read a lot good things about both horns and asking for your opinion.

Is there a big difference between those horns? I've never played one with big bore and short action valves and would like to know how big the difference is.

I've already played a Jupiter Fiber which was not bad, but had'nt a nice response when using the third valve.
Another one I've played was a Yamaha Fiber which had a great response no matter which height or deptht I've played.

Are the mentioned Conn Horns compareable with the Yamaha (guess it was a 301)?

I hope everything is understandable and please consider that this isn't my mother tongue.

Thanks a lot in advance

Nic

[Dan Schultz]

The bore through the valve sections of a 22K and 36K are the same.

From a repairmans perspective... the 36K horns are less trouble and used parts are plentiful. The valve section parts for the VERY common pre-1985 14K are the same.

On the other hand... most of the valve section parts for the 22K are still in production (aka 20K).

FWIW... My personal choice would be the 36K.

[NCSUSousa]

Both cost about the same (1500€)
...
Are the mentioned Conn Horns compareable with the Yamaha (guess it was a 301)?

IMO, Both of the Conn sousas mentioned were better than comparable models available from Yamaha or Jupiter back when I was in marching band.
If you have small hands, go with the 22K because it has the short action valves. I agree with Bloke's opinion that the 36K has a more focused sound.

Given the choice at the same price level, I would purchase the 36K for myself. I like the clarity of sound that it has and the standard valveset.

My Background on this - I played a 36K for my first two years in college marching band.
I played a 20K (22K is similar to the 20K, but the 22K is made of fiberglass) for my junior and senior years.

[David Richoux]

I was playing a borrowed 22K on our recent trip to Cuba. It has a good sound for a plastic horn but it had some problems surviving either TSA or American Airlines. The design of the supports that also attach the brass cluster to the body is not great. The socket that holds a rod that goes to the 3rd valve pipe sheared off, then the rest of the clamps and mounts gave way. (The case is a MTS with wheels, not sure of the model number.) As I said in another post, I was able to hold things together with some hose clamps and get through the trip, but it was very floppy!

In contrast, my Olds/Renolds plastic Sousaphone has survived more than 25 flights to many parts of the world without any problems, using an old SKB non wheeled case.

[Art Hovey]

David is correct about the 22K durability issue. I have one, and always bring a roll of duck tape when I use it. The other thing is that you never realize how loudly you are playing it because the huge bell directs the sound away from you. But I do like the short-action pistons and the high-note intonation is remarkably good.

[TubaRay]

fwiw, - I'm a mere *blue-collar tuba player.

Right! And, my hair is only a LITTLE bit gray.

[SousiOusi]

Thank you for the large number of inputs.

Actually my hands aren't very small and in general i dont feel uncomfortable using long action valves.
As you guys already mentioned, there might be a problem to find replacement parts for the 22K.

The shop with the 36K seems to have also a 22K but for 500 bucks more than for the 36k.
I guess the best should be (as always) to try these horns live.

I'm really curious to compare the 36K with the yamaha.

Furthermore a more focused, powerful and direct sound is what I'm looking for but as you know, the most important part is the player.

[Donn]

Furthermore a more focused, powerful and direct sound is what I'm looking for but as you know, the most important part is the player.

And of course that's more or less the typical design objective for sousaphone anyway, am I right? but you might find that the 36K has a slightly smaller 24 inch bell. Or you might not - that may have changed when they started selling the King sousaphone as a "Conn 36K", or may have changed over the years for other reasons. Anyway, I believe that you will get more focused and direct sound from a smaller bell, though the 2 inch difference won't be real obvious.

[SousiOusi]

Actually I'm not sure how old the Conn 36K's are.

On their Homepage the bell diameter is qouted with 61 cm (24 inch).
Is this the incognito King model or one of the old 36Ks?

http://www.usa-vintage-saxophon.de/inst ... mage_large
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Sousaphon-Conn-3 ... M/$_57.GIF

The retailer has about 30 horns at the store which allows me hopefully to find the one and only I'm looking for.

[Donn]

That's the original Conn. Very nice!

[SousiOusi]

That's the original Conn. Very nice!

Great to hear that.

The Shop owner imports old instruments from the US to Germany and restores them.
He also offers 26K, 14K, 20K, 22K, King 2350 and some Olds.

I guess it is the best to try some of the horns and find the best one.
The Price is in my opinion fair because I prefer an good old Instrument for about 1500€ instead of a new Yamaha for 5000+€.

[Ulli]

The Shop owner imports old instruments from the US to Germany and restores them.

Henning/Wencke Düsseldorf sind ok. Habe dort mein Conn 20J gekauft...
Grüße
Ulli

[SousiOusi]

The Shop owner imports old instruments from the US to Germany and restores them.

Henning/Wencke Düsseldorf sind ok. Habe dort mein Conn 20J gekauft...
Grüße
Ulli

Hoi Ulli, danke für die Info.
Habe viel positives über den Shop gehört, nur müssen sich ca. 5 Stunden Fahrt auch lohnen.
Kannst Du etwas über die Auswahl vor Ort berichten? Sind alle Instrumente vor Ort oder müssen erst herbei gebracht werden?

[Ulli]

Kannst Du etwas über die Auswahl vor Ort berichten? Sind alle Instrumente vor Ort oder müssen erst herbei gebracht werden?

Hoi? Nederlands?
Ich war vor fünf Jahren dort.
Ruf doch einfach an und frage danach.
Groetjes

[SousiOusi]

Kannst Du etwas über die Auswahl vor Ort berichten? Sind alle Instrumente vor Ort oder müssen erst herbei gebracht werden?

Hoi? Nederlands?
Ich war vor fünf Jahren dort.
Ruf doch einfach an und frage danach.
Groetjes

Nein Süddeutschland an der schweizer Grenze. Ein Hoi ist wohl nicht so populär wie ein Moin oder ähnliches
Danke für den Hinweis, habe mich schon per Mail gemeldet und werde mich dort nochmal melden, wenn ich einen definitiven Termin kenne.

@ bloke

It's great to see such pictures.
In my opinion you did great work and I Like that tarnished finish even more than shiny ones.

[iiipopes]

fwiw, I own a hybrid 36K (four valves, and upper #1 slide). I can have any sousaphone I want. I'm one of those very few "weirdos" who *prefers* a fiberglass sousaphone (and this particular one - sound and all) over brass...but - then again - I'm a mere *blue-collar tuba player.

I'm another one who actually prefers a fiberglass souzy, for both weight and tone.

Other good fiberglass souzys include:
Selmer Signet, which is very similar to the 36K;
King, which the older ones are also heavier for the same reason - real fiberglass;
Reynolds, same bore as the king, but a wider bell throat between the size of the 36K and the 22K;
Olds, as set forth above.

Notice that bloke mentions the upper loop of the 1st valve slide being converted to a movable slide. I recommend this for all souzys. You can trim the upper outer tubes and adjust the length of the inner tubes so you can have about 1/2 inch or so push to get the 2nd space C in tune on the 36K, and then have a reasonable pull to get 1+3 in tune if you don't have a 4th valve.

[toobagrowl]

If you like the Conn 36K fiber sousa, you'd also like the Selmer Signet sousa, as it is very similar. Actually, the Selmer Signet has better/thicker bracing throughout the valve section than the Conn 36K. Those are very dark sounding sousas.
Overall though, I prefer the King and Yamaha (brass) sousas for their clearer, projecting sounds and easy playability.

[toobagrowl]

fwiw, I own a hybrid 36K (four valves, and upper #1 slide). I can have any sousaphone I want. I'm one of those very few "weirdos" who *prefers* a fiberglass sousaphone (and this particular one - sound and all) over brass...but - then again - I'm a mere *blue-collar tuba player.

I'm another one who actually prefers a fiberglass souzy, for both weight and tone.

Other good fiberglass souzys include:
Selmer Signet, which is very similar to the 36K;

Heh.....just noticed you already wrote that.

[SousiOusi]

Actually I'm not sure how old the Conn 36K's are.

On their Homepage the bell diameter is qouted with 61 cm (24 inch).
Is this the incognito King model or one of the old 36Ks?

http://www.usa-vintage-saxophon.de/inst ... mage_large
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Sousaphon-Conn-3 ... M/$_57.GIF

The retailer has about 30 horns at the store which allows me hopefully to find the one and only I'm looking for.

I'm looking forward to buy a horn next week.
A short question remains:

The Pictures I posted are showing two different models of the 36K - One with a 4th brass branch and one with a 4th fiber branch.

Which one is the better one?
Where are the differences?

Thanks a lot for your answers!

[NCSUSousa]

Actually I'm not sure how old the Conn 36K's are.

On their Homepage the bell diameter is qouted with 61 cm (24 inch).
Is this the incognito King model or one of the old 36Ks?

http://www.usa-vintage-saxophon.de/inst ... mage_large
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Sousaphon-Conn-3 ... M/$_57.GIF

The retailer has about 30 horns at the store which allows me hopefully to find the one and only I'm looking for.

I'm looking forward to buy a horn next week.
A short question remains:

The Pictures I posted are showing two different models of the 36K - One with a 4th brass branch and one with a 4th fiber branch.

Which one is the better one?
Where are the differences?

Thanks a lot for your answers!

These are not both pictures of model 36K, despite the image titles.
The $_57.GIF is a 22K. It has the short action valves. The volume of the outer branches should be slightly larger too.
The 22K with the fiberglass 4th branch matches what Bloke described (see post - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65291#p540088) for an older 22K.

The image_large.jpg is a true Conn 36K. It is not a re-badged King.