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Mark

Re: Go for it!

Post by Mark »

harold wrote:2. A plumber can easily make more than $50 an hour. If you don't believe me, you can call one. Here in Seattle, the standard charge is $80 which at 2080 hours in the average working year is $166,000.
But a plumber doesn't keep all of that. In a crafts position, the employee is typically paid about 25% of the hourly rate or $20 per hour in your example.
harold wrote:4. The link to Harvard also only showed data from the 75th percentile. Data from the 50th percentile would have been far more accurate - since it would be the mean of the earnings of all the graduates.
No, the Harvard data shows 25th percentile, median and 75th percentile. Even the 25th percentile with base plus additional income is greater than $100,000.

I used to make a living designing compensation plans for companies. If you don't trust the Harvard data, I can find dozens of other studies where the data is reported by the employer not the employee. The results will be comparable. MBAs from elite business schools just make a lot of money. :o
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Dan Schultz
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Post by Dan Schultz »

scouterbill wrote:Boy, am I tired of hearing that song. I have worked in the plumbing/HVAC trade for over 30 years. Yes the company I work for charges $70 for an hour sevice call. Between Uncle Sam, overhead, and the owners attempt at making a profit I end up with less than 1/4 of the amount billed.
I'm glad someone finally put this into plain words. Just because the corner music store charged $100 to chem-clean and lube a tuba doesn't mean the technician that did the work gets the money. The tech actually doing the work might only be making $10 an hour (if that!). The rest goes to overhead and the general cost of doing business. Bloke mentioned that he charged a lady $100 for an hours work on her bassoon but only a fool would think that he really made this much on the job. If I charged my customers $50 for every hour I put into a job I would price myself out of the market in many cases. Heck... I have customers an hour away that fully expect me to pick and deliver for free!
Dan Schultz
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Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
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Lew
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Re: Go for it!

Post by Lew »

Mark wrote:
harold wrote:2. A plumber can easily make more than $50 an hour. If you don't believe me, you can call one. Here in Seattle, the standard charge is $80 which at 2080 hours in the average working year is $166,000.
But a plumber doesn't keep all of that. In a crafts position, the employee is typically paid about 25% of the hourly rate or $20 per hour in your example.
harold wrote:4. The link to Harvard also only showed data from the 75th percentile. Data from the 50th percentile would have been far more accurate - since it would be the mean of the earnings of all the graduates.
No, the Harvard data shows 25th percentile, median and 75th percentile. Even the 25th percentile with base plus additional income is greater than $100,000.

I used to make a living designing compensation plans for companies. If you don't trust the Harvard data, I can find dozens of other studies where the data is reported by the employer not the employee. The results will be comparable. MBAs from elite business schools just make a lot of money. :o
I would be surprised if many MBA graduates from the top schools make less than $100K these days in total compensation (base, bonus, and long term). $100k just isn't that much income in many industries any more. We pay our middle of the road IT employees that in the company for which I work, and some make more than that in base salary alone. Our typical IT manager makes around $200k in total comp. Of course a good portion of that is in "long term compensation," aka stock options and restricted stock, but it vests after 3 years, so that still represents a steady state income.

The bottom line is that studies continue to show that college graduates average more income over their lifetimes than non-graduates. That doesn't mean that one can't be financially successful without completing college, for example Bill Gates and Michael Dell.

My opinion on a college education is that you should only go if there is something that you really want to learn about, not to improve your job prospects. I also believe that one needs to find a vocation that is also an avocation. As others have already said, why spend the majority of your life doing something that you hate, or even just tolerate, so that you can have enough money to enjoy the time away? Why not enjoy all of your life, including the time spent working?
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Post by LOTP »

A quote from someone or other(?):

Never get to be too good at something you hate.......they'll make you do it for the rest of your life!
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Post by cjk »

We pay our middle of the road IT employees that in the company for which I work, and some make more than that in base salary alone. Our typical IT manager makes around $200k in total comp.


Lew,

what company do you work for??

(and where??)

(and are they hiring??)

8)
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Daniel C. Oberloh
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Post by Daniel C. Oberloh »

Wow, Lots to read here. Wes has a lot of soul searching to do.
All this talk about potential salaries and the monetary value of college degrees is interesting but if you want to go into instrument repair as a vocation, I can tell you that even the most highly regarded university will not teach you the most important skills you must have to make a proper living in the trade.

I have worked with Technicians that had music degrees of one sort or another in performance, education and composition. They were all intelligent and very talented in their own way but in the beginning most of them struggled a great deal to be able to make an adequate paycheck working on band instruments. A few stuck with it and have done okay but most moved onto another line of employment. Simply put, you can read, write and talk about it all you want but the skills are achieved by hands on training and repetition.

I will be blunt here: Band instrument repair is a craft that calls for a great deal of skill and these skills take a considerable amount of time to acquire. A lot of practice and study is needed and this will mean long, hard days at the bench. Performance level on a brass or woodwind is a must if you really want to get anywhere. Woodwinds are mechanically challenging and take skills that call for a knowledge of the instrument's function and feel. If you want to focus on brass work, mechanical knowledge, soldering, and basic dent work are the skills that are a must in a small shop and the more advanced work will call for quite a bit more. Advanced brass work is labor intensive, dirty, costly in tooling, and requires the eye and hand of a sculptor. If you pursue the trade you will need to be able to perform basic, general repair and maintenance on woodwinds and brass. This insures you will be able to provide your employer with the services most commonly needed by their repair department (and help you keep your job). You can then add to your skills over time and pursue the area of the trade that interests you most.

I personally have no regrets that I was not fortunate enough to be able to attend a university or college. I went to instrument repair school at the age of nineteen. They did not call them technical colleges when I attended. The nice word was "technical institute", but we blue collar folk called it "trade school" and that was not with reverence. My high school guidance counselor (who had a masters degree) informed me I could not make a living at it and insisted I consider music education. I never sought her advice or even spoke to her again. My family and friends were very supportive and after two and a half years of repair school, another year and a half applicable of on the job training and a five year apprenticeship I was well under way. The support was and is still greatly appreciated. Fifteen years after completing the apprenticeship I continue to update my skills and knowledge of instrument repair and design. It never stops.

As for the college stuff, I believe the experiences of college are very valuable and a must for many careers. With what I have said here so far, I think it is best to work with a net. If you have other skills to fall back on it is easier and less worrisome to take the risks needed to achieve success. It might help if you can look at it this way - going into instrument repair is like wanting to be an artist; some folks are into it for the love of the craft, others for the image or the idea that it would just be fun. For many it is simply a job, nothing more. For me it is a challenging craft that I enjoy. It allows me to be creative and artistic. It also provides me and my employees with a livelihood while suppling the music community with the services that seem to always be in such short supply.

Just my 2¢ worth.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works

www.oberloh.com
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MaryAnn
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Post by MaryAnn »

Dan,
Really nice post, with everything in it. Just for the record, I would never guess from your writing that you didn't go to college...I've seen a LOT of engineers who can't write basic English. (standard joke but like all standard jokes, it has some truth behind it.)

What came through in what you wrote is that, like being a performance major, you just gotta love what you're doing, and be driven to do it beyond all obstacles.

I for one am just tickled pink that you master craftsmen/artists are out there doing what you do.

MA
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Daniel C. Oberloh
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Post by Daniel C. Oberloh »

MA,
Thanks!, thats a real compliment. It probably rubbed off the company I keep. I often say that one of the perks of my job is that I get to associate with the best part of society. I can't take all the credit for my writhing, spell-check and Sue aka "The love of my life" are great editors.

Sadly the Craftsmen/Artist types are in shorter supply then ever (In all trades) and I have no answers as to how this can be corrected. Society places a higher value on money and one's income. This being my observation, the fixation on acquiring products and services that are cheaper and cheaper has created a serious problem in the US with the production of high quality goods and services. Sure, the majority, to a certain extent wants and appreciates nice durable products as long as they pay no more then Wal-Mart prices.
I am lucky that I entered the trade when I did and took advantage of opportunities that came my way. Because I pursued the acquisition of the more advanced skills that I knew were in short supply i.e. machining, plating, engraving, I have plenty of work from all over North America. There are so few Technicians that can offer the more special services needed that the few of us who have these skills stay quite active working at the bench. Those who want to enter the trade and do more then flushing out rickety old trombone slides and cobbling together cheap clarinets in the back room of a little music store, will need to suck it up and work very hard if they want a solid career repairing and rebuilding band instruments. I recommend they seek the more advanced levels of service as this will not only keep them actively employed but will gain them the respect that comes with being a Master Craftsperson. I mentioned the thing in a previous post about "working with a net" I figured If the repair thing fell through, I could always be a "greeter" at Wal-Mart.

Best regards

Daniel C. Oberloh
Repair Technician to the stars (Floyd and Emma Star of Humptulips, Wa.)

Oberloh Woodwind and Brass works
www.oberloh
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