stupid F tuba questions

[barry grrr-ero]

My questions are stupid because I've never owned an F tuba. I've hardly ever even tried one. For years, I got by playing a Bessen 3+1 eefer with the 19" bell and larger leadpipe. Then I had a silver 983 Eb which was a terrific tuba. My right hand just can't deal with those long pistons any more. Now I'm having fun owning my first BAT: a rotary Neptune (love it!). Soooooo . . . .

If things go according to plan and I can actually sort-of retire, my next tuba purchase may be an F tuba. I should probably get a smaller C tuba to go along with the BAT first. Any thoughts on that? I just can't justify owning three tubas at this later stage of life (hell, I can't really justify one!). Soooooo . . .

The question becomes what used F tuba on a budget (?). Are the older B&S F tubas that crop-up from time to time worth my consideration? And there are so many Meinl-Weston variants that I would have no idea what to look for there. Are complicated fingerings and stuffy low registers going to drive me crazy? Are there any good Chinese F tuba copies that I should consider?

Let's set a target: something that I could play "Effie the Elephant" Suite and the Vaughan Williams on without spending years trying to work out the fingerings for the low register passages (or is that asking too much?).

Barry Guerrero

[imperialbari]

What about a rotary Eb?

Could fill the functions of a bass tuba and of a light contrabass tuba.

Klaus

[Rick Denney]

Quality Eb tubas are less common and just as expensive, if not moreso, than quality F tubas. Where Eb gets inexpensive is in old American-made models, some of which are excellent but not universally so by any means.

Most F tubas are made for professional or pro-wannabe tuba players and are thus expensive. A good F tuba has reasonable access to the lower register (with some willingness on the part of the player to spend the time necessary to understand how to feed air to the lower notes), good intonation, and a singing quality in the upper register. I do not expect an F tuba to have the sound of a contrabass tuba.

With most F tubas, one chooses between the accessibility of the lower register versus the singing quality of the upper register. There are some terrific F tubas on the market these days. I was greatly impressed by the Miraphone 481 early example at the Army Conference. But I played duets with Ray Grim the next day using my B&S, and concluded that while the Miraphone was easier to point, the B&S still gave me a bit more of what I wanted in return for its slightly greater effort.

The old B&S F tubas are superb, and old examples are absolutely worth consideration. I owned a 5-valve B&S Symphonie from the communist era of East Germany that had an exquisite tone and an abundance of song. It was the old pre-Perantucci design with four different bores through the four main valves, and these are especially nice. The fourth-valve low C requires focus, but if I can learn to play it, anyone can. The issue with it was a short fifth valve. I traded it for a newer six-valve B&S PT-9, which also has the original bore profile. These are orchestral F tubas and are not particularly small. F tubas have grown since these were designed, with the result that some have become hollow-sounding with an even more difficult low C.

The Yamaha 621 isn't that cheap even used, but it is a great F tuba for small ensemble. There is a volume ceiling with that instrument, and breaking through that ceiling requires going with a shallower mouthpiece and accepting a trombone-like sound. It doesn't have the singing quality of the B&S in the upper register, either.

I've long admired some of the big F tubas, like the Willson. But I have come to the conclusion that they are trying to make an F tuba sound and play like a C tuba, with the result that they lost some of their F-tuba qualities. The poster child is the Yamaha 822, on which requires extraordinary skill to create a lively, colorful sound, particularly in the upper register. An F tuba that doesn't sing in the upper register isn't doing its job, in my view.

The moral to that story is: Don't buy an F tuba to do the job of a C tuba. I use my F tuba in band when a different voice is required, such as an orchestral transcription of Berlioz or Mendelsohn. The rest of the section can cover the string-bass role while I cover the original tuba role in that music. For things like TubaChristmas, an F tuba can provide a distinctive inner voice on the upper tuba part. I also use my F tuba in quintet where a player has to be highly skilled to avoid making too broad a sound on a contrabass tuba to blend with the other instruments.

There are some Chinese-made F tubas (Asian isn't specific enough given my example above) that purport to capture the qualities of the instruments they mimic, but I've yet to play one that really worked at both ends of the scale.

As an older amateur, I find more opportunities to need an F tuba than for a small contrabass. In those cases where my big tubas are too big, an F tuba gives up little while a small contrabass might give up more of what those situations need.

Rick "just say no to any F tuba with fewer than five valves" Denney

[k001k47]

The answer is simple: buy my Getzen!

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=64939

[Douglas]

You should look at the Miraphone rotary e flats. There's a good one up on the for-sale section. I have no association to this instrument but I know it's good. I would avoid reinventing the wheel when there are instruments that meet your needs in a key that you already know how to play.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63766" target="_blank

DB

[Jay Bertolet]

I like Klaus' suggestion: Why not a rotary valve Eb? The Miraphone Norwegian Star would be a perfect choice for you. They are not as big as the Willson Eb so they retain more of the typical bass tuba sound and upper range ease. I think it would be more work than something like a Willson Eb if you wanted to make such a tuba sound like a small contrabass instrument but I believe it still could be done. The only issue I see would be cost. Norwegian Ebs are not all that common, way less so used. I suppose you'd have to balance that approach against knowing that you might be able to get away with purchasing only one horn instead of two. My advice is to play one and see what you think. Using Rick's spot-on analysis of what to look for in an F tuba works pretty well for Eb too.

[imperialbari]

The 5 valve Norwegian Star was among those I had in mind.

Another option might be hard to come by, but bloke has proven its efficiency in its helicon incarnation.

B&S didn’t market Eb tubas very much, if at all. Their Eb tubas were issued in their 2nd level Weltklang series, which however used the same parts and designs as the top B&S line, only the transmission was more old fashioned with S-links. Looks like there would be room for a 5th valve at the end of the leadpipe.

If you want to see it, go to the lower link in my signature and look for this entry:

Weltklang (the B&S second line) rotary tubas in F, Eb, and BBb from a 1985 catalogue

Klaus

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Depending on where you reside:
---go to one of the year's regional ITEA Conferences and try both Eb and F tubas out..
---call ahead to see what they have in stock and go to a large store that has different makes and models to try out (Baltimore Brass, Dillons, Horn Guys, Interstate Music, Just For Brass, etc.)...
---there are LOTS of new F tuba models and even new Eb tuba models that have been introduced and 'even more' that are coming out shortly...both European and Chinese....a good time to go try out & to see what fits your needs and budget the best ...
Mark

[imperialbari]

I was thinking of your Weltklang Eb helicon with the added 5th valve.

You are rooted in F, when it comes to bass tuba, which is not wrong. Neither is it the topic of this thread.

However the OP knows Eb and has two purposes to be filled, but a budget for one tuba. Hence my reference to the Weltklang Eb, which isn’t that common in the US, so I mentioned the nearest sample known to TubeNet.

Klaus

[bort]

A few short answers:

-- Buy an F tuba; compared to a BAT, it's a sports car
-- Rotary F's take a little work to learn, but except for the real stinky ones, none of them are THAT bad.
-- Complicated fingerings... well, I wouldn't want to play fast, low parts with lots of flats all day long, but it's not that bad. I've played F tuba in band before, and it's fun, sounds good, and helps define a tuba SECTION, instead of a tuba PART. Especially for marches, it sounds nice and makes it sound more Germanic.

The most important thing is to buy something at a price at which you think you could re-sell it later if you change your mind. Many tuba purchases can be low-risk ventures if you handle it like that. You should be able to get something good but not perfect between $3k and $5k -- I would start there and see if you like the concept. Then you can worry about specific brands and models, etc.

[barry grrr-ero]

Well thank you gentleman. I certainly didn't expect so many helpful comments in so short a span. I've learned several things. One, I should definitely consider older B&S F tubas that crop up. Two, I should also consider stepping up to the "Norwegian Star" Eb. I have heard Baadsvik live, and he was Baadass on that machine. We're talking about at least a year away, after we make our much needed move (love S.F. - been here for years - but the rents are astronomical). By then, there might be one or two more good Asian knock-offs at reasonable prices.

Even though I know lots of solo pieces of Eb tuba, I would welcome the challenge of learning them new on F tuba. But then again, why bother if I had the Norwegian Star and would be pretty much, 'up and running'? Thanks guys.

[imperialbari]

Not to spoil any games, but Øystein Baadsvik does not play the Norwegian Star. He plays this one:

http://www.miraphone.de/en/en_modeldeta ... 6&v=1&l=en

Which does not detract from the Norwegian Star as an option for you. ØB is an immensely strong player, who prefers resistance as this gives a faster response, and who also has the power to overcome the flip side of resistance like a tougher low register.

The wider (and dual) bore of the Norwegian Star would be a benefit for your wish for a tuba taking care of the lighter contrabass repertoire:

http://www.miraphone.de/en/en_modeldeta ... 6&v=1&l=en

Klaus

[Dylan King]

The new PT-10 copies are fantastic. Really good.

[bort]

How is it compared to a B&S?

[Rick Denney]

However the OP knows Eb and has two purposes to be filled, but a budget for one tuba. Hence my reference to the Weltklang Eb, which isn’t that common in the US, so I mentioned the nearest sample known to TubeNet.

The Norwegian Star seems to me to be a great tuba. But they are not as cheap or plentiful as older B&S F tubas. I've never seen an example of a Weltklang Eb tuba.

That's the only issue with finding an Eb. Eb tubas that really stand up to the comparison with the better F tubas haven't been as plentiful and tend to attract higher prices. Before those came the British-style Eb instruments, which do not fulfill requirements, and before that are instruments that I would not want to recommend in general. I have not looked at the for-sale section, and I recognize that exceptions are always possible.

Rick "who once paid a hair over $3000 for an excellent, used B&S F tuba" Denney

[imperialbari]

Well thank you gentleman. I certainly didn't expect so many helpful comments in so short a span. I've learned several things. One, I should definitely consider older B&S F tubas that crop up. Two, I should also consider stepping up to the "Norwegian Star" Eb. I have heard Baadsvik live, and he was Baadass on that machine. We're talking about at least a year away, after we make our much needed move (love S.F. - been here for years - but the rents are astronomical). By then, there might be one or two more good Asian knock-offs at reasonable prices.

Even though I know lots of solo pieces of Eb tuba, I would welcome the challenge of learning them new on F tuba. But then again, why bother if I had the Norwegian Star and would be pretty much, 'up and running'? Thanks guys.

This was why told about ØB and the stars.

[Ulli]

I've never seen an example of a Weltklang Eb tuba.

Look here:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Tuba-in-Eb-Es-We ... 19fbb0dd33" target="_blank" target="_blank

...and I have one too.

Ulli

[bort]

Thanks Joe! Very interesting to see the emergence of a high-quality lineup of Chinese-made tubas, and seriously, if the other brands can learn a thing or two about the linkages they will do themselves a huge favor.

Having tried a selection of Chinese tubas a few weeks ago, I found the rotary linkage lacking on all of them. Funcitonal, but certainly not as good as the rest of the horn was. (I won't even mention, beyond this, the head-scratcher of the "rubber band linkage" for a certain tuba's 5th valve... )

[MikeMason]

So,I would like to up grade the linkage on my mack f. Y'all think b&s links (or packer if available) would easily fit?i know some folks have upgraded miraclones in different ways. Anybody? Those spring loaded b&s ones seem pretty awesome.

[imperialbari]

The US’ economic problems are small compared to those imposed on Greece by a corrupt system that lies big time, Putin-style. The Greek population wants the other Euro countries to pay for the crimes of the past Greek governments, which in turn affects the Euro badly.

This is not a political statement, but a factual description, which is of the outmost interest to American TubeNet members, who are thinking about buying a new instrument from the Euro countries (Germany in this present case). 1 Euro today costs around 1.06 USD, which is the best rate for you since several years.

I am in the opposite situation. Not that we have the Euro, but our currency is linked to the Euro with a max fluctuation of 2% to either side being allowed. So some planned for acquisitions from non-Euro countries have to be delayed.

Klaus,
who is not attempting to make decisions for the OP, but tries to find relevant suggestions following the terms the original post laid out.

Edited for better grammar to help precision of the semantics.