Tympanis, tubas, and tuning

[Sally Larsen]

Does anyone have any suggestions about how to deal with a tympanist who doesn't seem to end up in tune with our tuba section? It is a real challenge to keep our pitch honest when he is pounding away two feet behind us, a quarter tone sharp.

Sally "who is surely not tactful enough to deal nicely with this" Larsen

[Chuck(G)]

Only a quarter tone? You lucky gal!

[Carroll]

But wouldn't she have to be behind him during the pee break to use a boxcutter on those "tight white things"? And just how would that affect the intonation of the drums?

[Kevin Hendrick]

But wouldn't she have to be behind him during the pee break to use a boxcutter on those "tight white things"? And just how would that affect the intonation of the drums?

Probably drive 'em an octave or two sharp

[MaryAnn]

Well, it's interesting. I see our timpanist tune his drums with a tuner, and then he sounds sharp too. Sometimes I wonder if it is at least partly a timbre issue. Since the oboe also uses a tuner to sound the A, bending it down to pitch but not moving the reed....you'd think the timpani would be the least of our problems, which is true.

Orchestra I played in some years ago....I was on 4th horn, and the timpanist regularly asked me to tell him whether to go up or down when he was tuning. That was a blessing. I don't know what he does now.

(Waiting for comments about "timber.")

MA

[mdc2d]

I'm lucky enough to have one of the best tympani players around in our wind ensemble (winner of DCI solo i and e competition and member of The Cavaliers), and I do know that its possible for them to be dead on with pitch. And what a fantastic sound when its in tune. Its like have another tuba in the section. I took it for granted until I subbed for a local orchestra on a Christmas concert, and lets just say this tympani player wasn't exactly perfect. I found this to make my life hell.

I would offer to get with this player outside of rehearsal and tell them your having difficultes finding him/her (pitch wise) during rehearsal. This way you fix the problem without anyone getting mad. Just a suggestion. MC

[SPerry]

There are many of us that empathise with your problem. Being able to bring conflicts up to people in a tactful way without causing tension is an art, and there are no classes in college that I can remember that deal with this delicate situation. Hmm...maybe Child Psy?

It sounds like your situation is one that cannot be worked out by the occasional comment. You may want to direct it to your conductor off the podium and ask that he give it extra attention. My guess is he already knows and realizes there is little he could do, but this way, you can at least keep him accountable.

Good luck, and check your weapons at the door. STEVE

[MaryAnn]

I've found that conductors are basically "never" willing to take on a player with problems.

I suppose you could tell the timpanist that you are having trouble matching pitch, and volunteer to bring in your tuner so you can "tune together" as opposed to telling him he is out in left field.

MA

[adam0408]

I've found that conductors are basically "never" willing to take on a player with problems.

I suppose you could tell the timpanist that you are having trouble matching pitch, and volunteer to bring in your tuner so you can "tune together" as opposed to telling him he is out in left field.

MA

I completely agree... telling someone they suck (literally or indirectly) will just make the situation worse. Treat the individual with the respect that you feel you want, and everything should be fine. Work with them instead of against them.

[bttmbow]

I work directly in front of two professional timpanists, both of them being excellent players. We also have a big Plexiglass sheild for sound protection between the percussionists and the back row of the brass section. After almost nine years of sitting in front of the timpani, I feel that I know what I CAN and CAN'T do with this particular set-up. (more details later! Some of this has to do with roll speed variations, which I want to talk to our timpanists about before seeming ignorant.)

When we play in Carnegie Hall, the timps are forward and to the left of the low brass section. In THIS location, just being removed enough from the proximity of the tuba, I do not experience the same degree of interference that I do in the orch. pit.
All this brings up a more important acoustical point: that of discernable pitch instruments vs. non-discernable pitch instruments in their ability to "get in the way" of the instrument that you're playing(in this case, tuba).

So, have you ever been to a Mass tuba ensemble event and found that the sounds/resonance of the other players feel like they are coming right into your bell and affecting the buzz of your lips? Well that's mostly the feeling of "off" pitches, different vibrato speeds, no vibrato, different start times for each note, and a multitude of other things.

But, with an instrument like the Bass drum, if you have your mouth on the the mouthpiece, wating to play, and the bass drum is hit, you can FEEL the displacement of air INTO your horn. Yes this sounds weird, but there it is...

I would love to go on a little bit more on this, but I have some other stuff to do, like play without the timps behind me...Doh!!

More on this subject later,
CJH
tuba METopera, NY

[Steve Marcus]

The toughest "pit"-fall (yuk-yuk) that I've run into with this situation is the l-o-n-g note at the end of the Tchaik' R-J Overture-Fantasy...

OTOH, in that example, you could thank the timpanist for providing a place for you to discretely take a breath (if you need it) during that long, soft B, couldn't you? (Depends somewhat upon the conductor's tempo)

[hurricane_harry]

I've found that conductors are basically "never" willing to take on a player with problems.

I suppose you could tell the timpanist that you are having trouble matching pitch, and volunteer to bring in your tuner so you can "tune together" as opposed to telling him he is out in left field.

MA

i was just working with michal broax (sorry about the spelling) at my local all city concert it was great. one min he would be show the timp how to play and the next he'd be playing bassoon.

[ccnftubadave]

What percussionists have told me is this:

Timpani have very complex overtones and should NOT be placed behind the tuba section, as these complex overtones interefere with our beloved sweet overtones....and will prevent any hope of projection of tuba sound.

Due to the physics of the instrument, the pitch sounds sharp up close, but in the hall may sound very much in tune. I think having them on the other side of the stage is very desirable.

Mr. Chris Hall mentioned, the timp. were in front of him. They were far enough away not to interfere...If they're ever too close, and you have an oppportunity to create a cushion of 8 feet or more.

[Leland]

Is it just my ear, or when a typmanist plays louder, does the pitch goes up?

[smurphius]

I think that due to the rate of decay of notes on timpani, that if the player is doing say a roll on a note, the repetition of the attack is much closer than say just one light tap to the drum. I think it is the attack that fools us.

Then again, any instrument which can also be called a kettle drum, in my opinion has no place in an orchestra. Sounds more like something to make a big pot of chili in.

Hmm...

That would be one hell of a large pot of chili. That could surely feed the whole music department a couple times over.

MUAHA.

I always knew there was a conventional use for percussion equipment.

My culinary dreams may come true still yet.

LOL!

[MaryAnn]

But, with an instrument like the Bass drum, if you have your mouth on the the mouthpiece, wating to play, and the bass drum is hit, you can FEEL the displacement of air INTO your horn. Yes this sounds weird, but there it is...
More on this subject later,
CJH
tuba METopera, NY

We deal with this all the time in the horn section. Our bells sometimes point directly back towards the drums....and it can wreak havoc with trying to play at all in front of the bass drum. Unfortunately in amateur groups there tends to be a level of disbelief that this could be something other than imaginary.

MA

[Matt G]

Didn't Phil Farkas have it written in his contract that he not be placed in front of the tympani?

I remember hearing that a long time ago.