Serious question: Why C tuba over Bb?

[Donn]

You're supposed to bring a CC tuba if you want to play for The Lion King, am I right?

[sloan]

Can't we all just get along? We should unite against our common foe....those euphonium players. They ruined our Brotherhood Association.

I agree - toss out those posers until they switch to C Euphoniums.

[swillafew]

Didn't Gene Pokorny and Tony Kniffen do a demonstration at the 2014 ITEA where they played excerpts back and forth alternating between CC and BBb? My understanding was that the audience could tell little, if any, difference in the sounds created, regardless of the key of the tuba being played.

Those gentlemen should publish a method book stating the point they made, and then we could refer to the book as the research of the finest artists. Or we could screw around in this forum disagreeing all day long.

[Untersatz]

The slide-pulling ones are for everyone else. The non-slide-pulling-ones are here at blokeplace.

Well Joe, in that case, that IS a very good thing! But I also think it has a lot to do with who is operating a given instrument & someone who IS a good enuff player (like Bloke) is likely to need less slide pulling to play "in tune"

[ghmerrill]

Can't we all just get along? We should unite against our common foe....those euphonium players. They ruined our Brotherhood Association.

I agree - toss out those posers until they switch to C Euphoniums.

There was a thread on Dave Werden's forum last year that was quite confused for a while. It started with someone asking about the general lack of availability of C euphoniums. Virtually everyone interpreted this as a question about whether (Bb) Euphoniums are non-transposing (at least in bass cleff as normally scored). But it turns out that in at least certain portions of the world (apparently Spain and Portugal), C -- rather than Bb -- euphoniums are widely used.

This raises the question of why the demographics of C euphoniums is so wildly different from the demographics of C tubas since (after all) euphoniums are just little tubas. It seems to make a lot of the rational about being able to play more easily in certain keys, etc. appear to be bogus.

[sloan]

Easy - there are no jobs in the US for Orchestral Euphonium players.

[tubajon]

In response to

"Considering how many tubas would audition for any open job, how could you determine the MOST qualified?..."

No idea. Glad I'm not on an audition panel and probably never will be. There are so many amazing players out there. Most qualified I guess means whoever played the best audition and demonstrated some kind of track record of consistently being reliable? Maybe in the end, it's up to the maestro? No idea.

[Rick Denney]

Cc tubas do speak quicker and play a little 'cleaner'

#1 Snobbish CC Bonehead quote of the day..........

those dirty BBbs........

I dunno about "cleaner", but they do speak quicker and more responsively.

F tubas are much more responsive than are contrabass tubas, in return for a smaller sound and a need for more valves to cover the repertoire. It makes sense that C tubas, which are between Bb and F, travel partway from one to the other.

Rick "noting that other differences may overwhelm these" Denney

[ghmerrill]

Easy - there are no jobs in the US for Orchestral Euphonium players.

I guess people need to move to Spain and Portugal to compete for all those orchestral euphonium gigs. Maybe all the euph performance programs in the universities should start requiring Spanish and Portuguese for a degree -- not to mention focusing on the Spanish/Portuguese orchestral repertoire.

[toobagrowl]

CC vs. BBb? Both In my experience, there is some truth to CC tubas being slightly more responsive and playing a little "cleaner" than equivalent BBb tubas. CC tubas tend to give a more "articulated" sound than similar BBb tubas. However, I find BBb tubas to offer overall smoother legatos & slurs than equivalent CC tubas. But, in the end, there isn't a huge difference between similar CC and BBb tubas, and it mostly comes down to the player. You will find much more difference between brands and models of tubas than pitch of tubas.

CC and BBb tubas: contrabass brothers

[ken k]

Some ideas I've heard from American players include CC tubas are more responsive, the sound isn't as "fuzzy," orchestral keys are easier, etc.

I'm not a physicist, but it does make some surface-level sense that since a CC tuba has a shorter bugle than BBb, identical notes will occur lower in that instrument's overtone series. Ie. There's less tube to go through on a CC tuba. Might that be why response tends to be quicker on CC?

The better answer to your question: cultural preference.

some notes.... first valve Bb on a CC tuba for example will be the same length bugle as an open Bb on an BBb tuba, same with an A, Ab, F, E, Eb, D, Db

[MacedoniaTuba]

I used to play Melton Bb 25 model for two years,before I bought my Tuono. I felt the 25 much more easier and more versatile for playing. It had more clear attack and tongue,but the Tuono had better legato and was "singing" bel canto better. Maybe it was just the size or the quality of the instrument,can't really know. Also I compared the 25 with Callison 2000 that my colleague is playing,again I got the same result,better bel canto on the CC tuba,but more precise staccato and attack on the Bb. I love my CC and don't intend to change it soon,but love the time spent on the Bb as well.
Also most of the colleagues told me(since I am from Europe) that I should have got Bb tuba cause it's easier,but I liked more the sound of the CC and didn't want to believe that one is easier or harder to play. Practicing will make them both sound easy,I believe. And my boss (the principal trombone) used to study in Eastmen and was really trying to make our sound "American" as much we were capable to pleasure his demands,which was kind of natural on my CC.
Just my small experience and opinion
Cheers!!!

[Untersatz]

With CC tubas, the most out-of-tune and fuzzy pitches are C, C#, D, C#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, and B...

whereas...

with BBb tubas, the most out-of-tune and fuzzy pitches are Bb, Cb, C, Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, and A.

[sloan]

Obviously, every contra-bass section should include 1 BBb and one C tuba. That way, there are no bad notes.

No one has ever thought of this before...

[The Big Ben]

I hope someone could explain this to me at this late date in the thread.

I have one book I use for most of my practice and that is the Arban's edited by Wesley Jacobs. I bought it because it said "Arban's" and "tuba" on the cover and I had used the Arban's with the trumpet and liked it. Others have said another Arban's to get would be the trombone edition but play it an octave down.

The Jacobs edition states that it has been scored and edited "for the CC tuba". I'm using a BBb tuba and press on regardless. What would make this edition "for the CC tuba" instead of "for the tuba"? I've never used another edition.

(I have a decent horn in BBb now and am not planning to change it. But, if I was offered a screamingly good deal on a Piggy or 186 CC and liked the sound better than what I have, I would consider changing and just learn the CC fingerings.)

[sloan]

The Jacobs edition states that it has been scored and edited "for the CC tuba". I'm using a BBb tuba and press on regardless. What would make this edition "for the CC tuba" instead of "for the tuba"? I've never used another edition.

Editing for C means that fingering challenges are presented in the intended order, if you are playing on a C tuba. If you are playing on a BBb, the fine-grained ordering of the exercises is a bit "wrong". This only matters if you blindly go through the book without an instructor. Arbans really *needs* an instructor to guide you. But - it's not really a big deal. Almost everything in Arbans is done in all 12 keys - it's just a matter of where you start. Once you get past the first few pages, it hardly matters.

Any inconvenience to the BBb player is more than compensated by the good production values of this edition.

[sloan]

It's official - no more skating with a BBb. Next time - Eb helicon!

[eupher61]

How comes nobody's saying "I prefer F because it speaks so much easier than Eb, because of the shorter pipe"?

[pgym]

How comes nobody's saying "I prefer F because it speaks so much easier than Eb, because of the shorter pipe"?

Possibly, just possibly, it might have something to do with the fact that the OP asks about German and US orchestral practice, and neither German nor US orchestral traditions use/prescribe/require/expect Eb.

[ghmerrill]

Obviously, every contra-bass section should include 1 BBb and one C tuba. That way, there are no bad notes.

No one has ever thought of this before...

Definitely. I noticed this about a year ago at a July 4 concert when our tuba section consisted of one CC, one EEb, and one F. There were very few bad notes. If we'd had a BBb horn, it would have been great. Some effort was required in assuring that everyone played only his best notes.