Gold plating a mouthpiece - will it last?

[elihellsten]

Hey. I have this spring developed an allergy to silver plated mouthpieces after playing them without any problems all my career. Oh well. Not a big problem after all, there a stainless steel mouthpieces and such. I have also heard that you can gold plate your mouthpiece, and there is a brass/ww-repair firm here that does this.

What are your experiences with gold plated mouthpieces? For how long will the plating last? Is it worth it? It is rather expensive (it costs as much as a brand new G&W-mouthpiece, minus the shipping to Sweden/taxes). However, this way I can just plate the pieces I already own and have mouthpieces in the exact size that I want.

[tbn.al]

After I modified it 15 years ago, I had my Schilke 60 bass trombone mouthpiece gold plated by a local shop. The plating has faded over the years but it is still there and functional.

[ghmerrill]

I used to use gold-plated mouthpieces, but eventually decided they didn't really gain me anything. But anyhow ...

My experience in having a couple gold-plated by one of the services that offers this was that the result, while initially very attractive, did not compare to the plating on my factory-plated Schilke mouthpiece. It was never quite as "deep" and "rich" as the factory plating and took only a couple of years of constant use to begin to obviously wear through (while the Schilke showed no signs of wear). However, I think this is obviously dependent on how thick the plating is.

My belief (with limited experience) is that if you are willing to spend a bit of extra money with a competent plater, you can get what you want. Whether it's worth doing that -- compared to buying a factory-plated mouthpiece with the current price of gold -- is another question. I think I'd be inclined to sell my old mouthpiece on Tubenet or Ebay and then go the factory route.

[MikeW]

If you plate gold straight over silver, the two metals will migrate into each other over time, forming the alloy "electrum" (the mouthpiece will look bright, mostly silvery, with a slight yellowish tinge). I don't know how long this takes, but the effect was obvious on a tray full of "estate-sale" mouthpieces I saw recently.
If you are trying to keep the silver off your face, this is an obvious fail.

You have to put a layer of Nickel between the gold and the silver, to keep the two apart. Also, silver plating is usually applied over a "flash" of copper (to improve adhesion) followed by Nickel (to stop migration between the copper and the silver layer, and sometimes to provide a smoother surface). If your existing plating is worn, you could be reacting to exposed Nickel (the commonest source of skin allergies, after poison ivy).

It's best to check with an allergist that your problem is actually with the silver - other metals are often added to the plating bath to improve the properties of the silver plate. The commonest causes of allergic reactions are nickel (added for hardness) and cobalt (added to prevent pin-hole defects).

[MartyNeilan]

The three ways to make gold plating last longer on a mouthpiece:
1. Do not rest it on the rim
2. Do not rest it on the rim
3. Do not rest it on the rim

[MikeW]

The three ways to make gold plating last longer on a mouthpiece:
1. Do not rest it on the rim
2. Do not rest it on the rim
3. Do not rest it on the rim

+10

[MartyNeilan]

I believe that gold migrates into silver below it somewhat, but - more than that - I believe it (simply) wears off, as lightening of gold plating is rarely observed anywhere but on the surface of mouthpieces (the rim face) that contact players' faces.

One of the reasons I don't like buying used mouthpieces is that there is always that perfect line of gold worn off exactly on the apex of the rim. If it is was from the face, it would be a wider area. To me, this is from being out down on the gold every time.

[bort]

Clearly, the solution is a solid gold mouthpiece.

[MikeW]

... Again, nickel plating creates a very shiny (but also very slick) surface, and other plating just doesn't adhere to it very well (at least, not what I've witnessed). If any nickel plated item is sent to Anderson to have any other plating (including "more nickel") plated on top of it, their standard warning is "no guarantee".

I am a long way from my comfort zone here, and there is a vast amount of information on Nickel and Gold plating available on the web, most of which I have not read, but I think that the required technique for gold plating to Mil Spec is to buff your brass to a mirror gloss, then flash the prepared surface with copper, to ensure adhesion, followed by a thin layer of Nickel as an "underplate" that seals the copper and prevents it from migrating through the Gold (which would discolour the surface), and then plate the Gold over the Nickel, followed by a final polish.
The Nickel compares to "knotting and stopping" under a quality paint job, to stop resins from the woodwork from bleeding through to the surface.

The cheaper method you describe uses a thick layer of Nickel to bury, and smooth over, surface imperfections left over by poor-quality buffing. I believe it is this thick layer that tends to have adhesion problems (?).
I would compare this to mudding over your dry wall joints: You can, theoretically, get a good finish if you work very carefully ($$$).

To stick my neck out even further, I found one suggestion that waiting too long after applying the thin Nickel plate can cause poor adhesion. I don't know how long would be too long, but dare I speculate that shipping a previously Nickel-plated item to Andersons might take "too long" ?

To answer an earlier poster's question about Denis Wick mouthpieces: the gold-plated mouthpiece I bought in 1980 was splendid, and performed well when new, but the gold wore off after a few years, and I started getting lip-sores, which I attribute to an allergy to the Nickel underplate (but see edit below). For the last year or so I have gone back to this mouthpiece, but with a coat of nail-varnish (kudos to the Tubenetter who posted the suggestion for that). I have read that some time in the nineties there were a batch or two, maybe more (?) of Wick mouthpieces from which the Gold plating flaked off, leaving sharp edges. I have seen comments to the effect that Wick's fixed the problem, but will probably never get their reputation back.

EDIT: correction - when using this mouthpiece in its worn state I developed lip sores, which I attributed to an allergic reaction to whatever was beneath the gold. Having had previous problems with Nickel allergy (on a watch-strap), I assumed there was Nickel under the gold, but to be fair I've never actually had it analysed. Using it now, with a coating of nail varnish, I have no problems at all.

[Doug Elliott]

Nickel in any form or thickness anywhere on a mouthpiece is an incredibly bad idea due the strong potential of allergy. Also the fact that nickel is much harder than brass, silver, or gold, and creates a nightmare for any subsequent repair or refinishing.

As for gold, my opinion is that it should be directly on top of silver, and if enough gold is used it will last a long time, and also cost a good bit.

My mouthpieces are plated with pure silver, and 24k gold, and no nickel is ever used.

[Donn]

Anybody else find denis wick gold plating to be sub standard?

Yes, I think a few have. My silver plate wore off, too, but I've never had any gold plated Denis Wick mouthpiece, so rather than recite hearsay I'll just say a web search might turn up a few issues with gold plating, and use of nickel, in that line. I believe other manufacturers commonly plate gold over silver.

[tofu]

Anybody else find denis wick gold plating to be sub standard?

Yes, I think a few have. My silver plate wore off, too, but I've never had any gold plated Denis Wick mouthpiece, so rather than recite hearsay I'll just say a web search might turn up a few issues with gold plating, and use of nickel, in that line. I believe other manufacturers commonly plate gold over silver.

I've got three gold ones I've bought over the years. The oldest I bought 25 years ago and it still is in excellent shape and certainly has seen a lot of use. In fact, they are all still in great shape - but I also take pains to gently clean them after every use and to not abuse them.

[aaronliu]

Haven't read much of this thread, but I did get a Denis Wick mouthpiece re-gold-plated in San Francisco many years ago, after the plating has worn off. It worked even better than the original plating because it was thicker. I later sold the mouthpiece in better condition than that in which I bought it.

[Three Valves]

Clearly, the solution is a solid gold mouthpiece.

18kt at least!!

[TubaRay]

Clearly, the solution is a solid gold mouthpiece.

If you do this, would you have one made for me. I'll gladly pay the postage.