Serious question: Why C tuba over Bb?

[windshieldbug]

the OP asks about German and US orchestral practice

Mostly, US orchestral practice seems to be to go out of business.
I wonder why nobody has ever put the obvious correlation of CC tuba use and business viability together before!?

[aaronliu]

bloke,



[sort of a private joke]

(if you're interested in why it's a joke, you can read the thread I started on the Off Topic forum about how to start playing the tuba.)

[dmmorris]

9 pages of this stuff....sheesh.

Just strip the lacquer off of your BBb and everything will be equal.

[aaronliu]

Okay, I may regret this but I want to say my piece on this topic. I want to read the rest of the posts; I've read the first half. They're fascinating.

I want to play a CC tuba as my first tuba because I think in the key of C. When I started the piano as a kid, I learned C first. And that is where my pitch memory is centered most easily.

When I played band music on the trombone, I played in the keys with flats, and it was easy.

But the trombone is difficult to negotiate in some ways because of the positions. It's easy to play in the key of B flat, the key of E flat, A flat, but harder to play in the keys like C major, G, D, A, E, B. The reason why I find it to be so is that when the slide position is further out, it is harder to change between the positions, so dexterity is compromised. The positions with shorter tubing are closer to each other and easier to move between.

Having a C tuba is like having a trombone with two additional positions that are even closer than first position. To me it's an advantage because I like having an open (no valves) position with the notes, C, G, C, E, G, Bb, C, D, E in the overtone series. I use the notes C and G a lot. They're important bass notes in C major, G major, for example. I understand that the C tuba seems harder to tune because it's shorter, so small differences in tube lengths will have more effect on the intonation than it would on a B flat tuba.

So anyway I like the idea of C tuba because it allows me to negotiate the keys with no sharps, or a few sharps, more easily than it would be on a B flat tuba. I might have a B flat tube in the future and learn both fingerings anyway. I think it's interesting to play with different keyed tubas for improvisation because you feel the key areas differently, and you would learn all the keys better, if you can do the mental translation from C to B flat. If I ever play an F tuba, that will be very interesting.

Also, in the higher registers, the notes higher in the overtone series will have interesting colors, and the key of the tuba will make a difference. I love using "alternate positions" on the trombone because playing a note with a longer tube length but higher in the overtone series gives it a different color. I like playing B flat in fifth position instead of first sometimes. It can be easier to tune, and easier to reach.

I just think and hear in C well, and I can tell the difference between a B flat and C tuba when I hear the playing. It will be hard for me to play in the flat keys (keys with flats in them) on a CC tuba, but I will either get a B flat tuba, or just suck it up. I like the technically easier band music anyway, so I don't care as much about dexterity.

I didn't get good at the flat keys until I began to play the trombone. So it was a case of the instrument guiding the process of musical learning.

I don't know if this will help anyone, but at least it explains why one particular person might prefer one tuba over another.

One thing that seems like a real, practical difference is that the stringed instruments resonate on notes like G D A E for violin for example. Orchestral music is easier to play and takes advantage of stringed instruments' natural resonances when it is written in keys that allow the use of open strings and fewer fingers on the fingerboard at once. Strings just sound better in the sharp keys, just like a B flat trombone sounds better in the key of B flat than in the key of E major. So to play with strings, I'd think a CC tuba would be easier. A great player would sound great on any instrument, but I see a B flat tuba--playing one, that is--as having more hurdles to negotiate than a CC tuba, when playing with strings in the common sharp keys of D, G, A, E, B major for example. I know that is true on the trombone, especially for a person (me, for example) who has a harder time reaching the far out positions, like 6th and 7th positions on the trombone.

[doublebuzzing]

Rick "thinking Jacobs is responsible for popularizing the Yorkish design, not for popularizing the use of C tubas in American orchestras" Denney

I couldn't agree more! In fact, my recollection of that era (the 70s) is that players were finally having easy access to instruments made in the same style as the Chicago Yorks and that professional tubists quickly polarized into 2 distinct groups: Those who were playing in a similar style as Jacobs and those who were more in the style of Bishop and Schmitz and Kirk. The instruments designed after the Yorks have a very distinctive style of sound, just as the instruments of Alexander, Rudolf Meinl, and Meinl-Weston (like the Bell Model) have an equally distinctive and different style of sound. None of that has anything to do with the issue of CC versus BBb. As Rick suggested, I think the tradition of using CCs in major American Orchestras was established long before Jacobs came on the scene.

Does anyone know whether Chester switched (in the 80s) from his Alex to the Yorkbrunner on his own or did the music director/colleagues suggest he do so? If so, why did they want him on a York?

[TheGoyWonder]

There is a very good reason to choose a C tuba, and it's very simple:
You want your low C and B to be the very best they can be. You live and die by those notes.
It is imperative that you master The Ride (is mostly in Bnat) and you would give your firstborn to play it 5% better.

If that's not you, you can overlook the C tuba. It strange that so many sell.

[Ace]

There is another section of the universe that is arguing over the same issues.

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/view ... ?p=1204416" target="_blank

Ace

[MartyNeilan]

Regarding tuning:the only time I move my main slide is when playing with an out of tune church organ or under mute. Tuning a is just a tradition for most brass players.strings seem to need it the most. My observations.

When I played bass trombone frequently, that was largely the case (due to the ability to fine tune at my fingertips). I had one tuning slide position for symphonic band/wind ensemble and another for big band much further in - the trumpets didn't play out of tune, they played sharp

[Michael Bush]

I just heard a minor but not half bad American orchestra play Till Eulenspiegel supported by a tuba player using what appeared to me to be a newish example of this 4/4 BBb tuba: http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/cbb681_4m.php.

If you blindfolded me beforehand, all I could have told you afterwards was that he played a tuba (rather well, I thought.)

I have recently heard a somewhat better known orchestra's tuba player do less well with a CC tuba half again as big and five times as expensive.

[aaronliu]

This quote from earlier in the thread:

"...just like a B flat trombone sounds better in the key of B flat than in the key of E major..."

I truly don't understand. Is it not possible for the trombone to play perfectly in tune, regardless of key?

DG

dgpretzel,

I'll try to answer this well and succinctly, but my opinion is subjective, and I think out loud.

1. The shortest tubing lengths are a little freer to blow through.
2. The shorter tubing lengths are easier to tune by moving the slide because you have to move it less.
3. The shorter tubing lengths are easier to move between because they are closer together and because on the trombone, they involve more of the wrist than the elbow.

On the trombone you can adjust the pitch of almost every note by moving the slide, yes. I suppose I would say that many players don't do it as much as they should. I think it's because their sense of pitch isn't fine enough, or because of habit.

There are many recordings of professional orchestras (I think second trombone parts are the most difficult to play in tune) in which I feel that some of the trombone notes are slightly out of tune because players play certain positions a certain way, and don't adjust for the particular chord being played. For example, I hear a lot of E naturals out of tune. This is the E natural which is two ledger lines above the staff in bass clef, the one above middle C of the piano. This note is played in second position (equivalent to depressing the second valve on B flat brass instruments). For example, if the E natural is functioning in a C major chord, it needs to be flattened a bit to be in tune, just because the 3rd degree of a major scale has to be a little flatter to sound in tune. Conversely, if it is functioning in a C minor chord, it needs to be sharpened a bit to sound in tune.

So it's possible to adjust the pitch of every note, but in real life, it's just harder to do in the notes that have more tubing, because you have to move further to get to the right place. If you don't do it in the shorter tubing notes, you don't tend to do it in the longer tubing notes, and the out of tune-ness gets more severe. Also it's harder to move fast between the positions with longer tubing. Watch a professional trombonist play something fast in B flat major versus E major in the lower register where you have to use all the tubing, and you'll see a lot more work happening in the E major passage.

Does that help at all? I would be happy to try to find an example on Youtube and send it to you privately if you want. We can correspond directly if you're interested.

[aaronliu]

There is a very good reason to choose a C tuba, and it's very simple:
You want your low C and B to be the very best they can be. You live and die by those notes.
It is imperative that you master The Ride (is mostly in Bnat) and you would give your firstborn to play it 5% better.

If that's not you, you can overlook the C tuba. It strange that so many sell.

Goy, you've distilled my many hours of thought and writing into their essence. Those two notes are probably 90% of the reason I want to play CC tuba. I'll let you know how it goes when I start.

[windshieldbug]

Maybe Schleppie can make a 'stickie' out of this topic!

Why?

Then tubas will stick to you, and you can tell us if there are more CC's or BBb's.
You could even "update" us on the status...

[Wyvern]

As has been said already, they seem to play C tuba almost exclusively in Spain. I wonder if a Spaniard started the C tuba cult in American orchestras? If you go back to early 20th century, was it not Bb being used in most American orchestras?

It was the German conductor, Richter that brought the F tuba to British orchestras, although as I recently learnt from Facebook discussion, the Eb was still preferred in orchestra by ex-military band tuba players.

It is interesting how these national traditions arise - and long may they last

[Untersatz]

I like the ones with the nanny-goat vibrato the best!

[FreeBandMusic]

Lots of oversimplification here!

Trombone players like flat keys like Bb and Eb... if they are in jr. high school band and that's all they know.

They will hate something in the key of Cb or F# because it is unfamiliar. Good players won't care.

Good players will adjust every day to play in tune, just tuba players will. Crummy players play out of tune.

Often good trombone players actually try to AVOID notes in 1st position, because if you're flat, you can't adjust upward. Some trombones ( 88H, 60H, Besson 10-10) have springs so you can pull in about a half-inch in 1st position. Others have tuning slides shortened a bit, and adjust every position fraction further the slide, so in-tune 1st position is NOT all the way in out. This is because many really good players want to be able play a slide vibrato which vibrates both above and below the pitch center.

Most good players don't really mind sharp keys at all... sharp keys seem to have more alternate positions. The object to minimize slide movement, not keep clunking the slide back into 1st position.

Someone mentioned playing a solo in E rather Bb, and the awkwardness of 7th position E. True... except most players in that range use a trigger, more commonly than a tuba use a 4th valve. Peashooter players, the lead jazz guys, almost never have to play low E in 7th.

John Thompson
Trombone, Euph
BBb Mirafone 186, just cause I already own one

[Rick Denney]

Some years ago I made a comparison of the scales of both Bb and C tubas to determine which notes actually took advantage of playing a lower partial. It turned out that not very many did. And there were as many notes where the Bb tuba had the advantage for one reason or another. Moving from contrabass to bass is enough to change everything in the cash register by a whole partial, even at the bottom of the tuning scale. But the whole step had advantages and disadvantages.

Someone used the Ride of the Valkyries as an example, because of the C and Cb and the need for those to be that little bit better. And yet every time a German or Austrian orchestra plays Wagner, and the part says "Kontrabasstuba", the tuba player picks up a Bb kaiser rotary tuba, often with just four valves. I'm sure there are orchestras that lay down Wagner as well as the major German and Austrian orchestras, but I wouldn't bet on any of them being better.

I've never heard of a trombone player in an orchestra having a C trombone made. The positions would be closer together, making them easier (right? Right!). In fact, the reverse is true. All the trombones in the section are now Bb instruments, and that did not used to be the case.

As I said, C tubas are part of the way between Bb and F tubas, and thus will have a touch of F-tuba attributes compared to Bb tubas, both good (slightly more responsive and agile) and bad (not quite as big and broad a sound, unless the instrument is so fat that intonation becomes challenging).

Rick "who knows why he finds sharp keys more challenging, and it's not because of the length of the bugle" Denney

[eupher61]

Other trombone players tune so that first position is out c. 1/4", and don't like springs because they vibrate enharmonically with certain notes...

...usually sharps.

fonzie.jpg

[eutubabone]

I agree with the person who said, the non-playing tuba auditioners could care less about the brand, key, etc., as long as the tuba being played upon for the particular excerpt gets the job done , in tune, nice sound for the style of music played, and do the trombone guys like it.

Another question from a famous character on a national tv program:
Do you open your mouth before you eat the cake or after you eat the cake?(this results a a very heated discussion amongst 5th graders, btw).

[dave_matheson]

haha .... well done, Bloke !

Which sing better:

C sopranos or Bb sopranos?

Which sound better singing the national anthem with orchestras...??

with bands...??

Which win more talent contests?

Which can sing faster?

[sloan]

Which sing better:

C sopranos or Bb sopranos?

Which sound better singing the national anthem with orchestras...??

with bands...??

Which win more talent contests?

Which can sing faster?

Blonde, or Brunette?