Richard Wagner

[aaronliu]

I know I've started a lot of topics, and I'm new. I will try to keep it reasonable so as not to annoy people. This topic--the musical significance of Richard Wagner--has been important to me for a long time, and I would like to have people to talk about it with. I don't want to go to an academic forum--too dry for me. I want to talk with tubaists, now that I've taken up the tuba.

Let's talk about Richard Wagner. I'd like the thread to go anywhere it pleases. At the moment, I'm focused on his music, but I would like to know more about his life and historical significance, too. If the conversation jumps among those topics simultaneously, let's parallel process them.

For now I will not steer the conversation in any direction. Let's see what happens. I'll chime in about his compositional style and innnovation soon enough.

Aaron

[aaronliu]

listening to "Parsifal" now. Recorded in Bayreuth. The male singer's entrance is astounding. His voice is incredible--larger than the whole orchestra. Sounds as though miked:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD8v2213TeE" target="_blank

[ufonium2]

I don't want to go to an academic forum--too dry for me. I want to talk with tubaists, now that I've taken up the tuba.

I probably shouldn't respond, since I'm an academic and thus too dry for you, but Wagner is the most written-about musician in history. Unless you're talking about tuba-specific issues, why would you limit yourself to tubenet?

[Worth]

I'm not as qualified as many on this forum regarding the musical significance and impact, but you also asked for historical significance. As a past and present student of the sciences, I have more recently gone back and started to learn about and try to understand some major points in history. Audiobooks and a somewhat long commute make this possible. I never had heard of the the Hitler-Wagner relationship until about a month ago. Although most likely a one-sided relationship it is nonetheless quite interesting.

From a book review --

Hitler claimed that his Weltanschauung was derived from Wagner. His youthful reaction to Rienzi led him to exclaim 30 years later: 'It began at that hour'. In Mein Kampf, he praised Wagner as a great revolutionary and claimed to have no forerunner except Wagner. Fest suggests that Wagner had an immense effect upon Hitler. 'The Master of Bayreuth was not only Hitler's great exemplar; he was also the young man's ideological mentor. Wagner's political writing... together with the operas, form the entire framework for Hitler's ideology.... Here he found the granite foundations for his view of the world'. To Davidowicz, racial imperialism and the fanatic plan to destroy the Jews were the dominant passions behind Hitler's drive for power, 'forming the matrix of his ideology and the ineradicable core of Nationalist Socialist doctrine'. It was Hitler himself who placed responsibility for these ideas upon Wagner: 'Whoever wants to understand National Socialist Germany must know Wagner'. Clearly Wagner and his works were adopted as cultural symbols by Hitler and the Third Reich, but was his output misused by the Nazis, or does it contain elements that made appropriation possible?

[aaronliu]

ufonium, glad you responded...

Nothing personal--I like academic stuff. A little self effacing, I was, but you don't know me yet so it's not obvious. I can be academic but doesn't serve well because I've missed out on a lot that I could have experienced.

I guess I am interested mostly from a musical perspective, and I want get the "nuggets" first and fill in the context as I go. For example, I was struck by Wagner's chord modulations and his approach to musical texture. I hear Coltrane, I hear Bach, I hear Hollywood, I hear Brahms and Mahler...I hear Bill Evans, the jazz pianist. I hear the diminished seventh chord and I'm reminded of Beethoven's piano sonatas.

Plus I'm super busy with work, and have to try to prioritize my musical interests. First priority is to play and get out there, and meet people, musicians, music appreciators. Haven't played in a long time.

No offense intended and always happy to learn from an academic. My father started out as one. I wanted to be one perhaps but never did it. Life didn't work out that way. But I'm happy with my career now.

Aaron

[aaronliu]

I'm not as qualified as many on this forum regarding the musical significance and impact, but you also asked for historical significance. As a past and present student of the sciences, I have more recently gone back and started to learn about and try to understand some major points in history. Audiobooks and a somewhat long commute make this possible. I never had heard of the the Hitler-Wagner relationship until about a month ago. Although most likely a one-sided relationship it is nonetheless quite interesting.

From a book review --

Hitler claimed that his Weltanschauung was derived from Wagner. His youthful reaction to Rienzi led him to exclaim 30 years later: 'It began at that hour'. In Mein Kampf, he praised Wagner as a great revolutionary and claimed to have no forerunner except Wagner. Fest suggests that Wagner had an immense effect upon Hitler. 'The Master of Bayreuth was not only Hitler's great exemplar; he was also the young man's ideological mentor. Wagner's political writing... together with the operas, form the entire framework for Hitler's ideology.... Here he found the granite foundations for his view of the world'. To Davidowicz, racial imperialism and the fanatic plan to destroy the Jews were the dominant passions behind Hitler's drive for power, 'forming the matrix of his ideology and the ineradicable core of Nationalist Socialist doctrine'. It was Hitler himself who placed responsibility for these ideas upon Wagner: 'Whoever wants to understand National Socialist Germany must know Wagner'. Clearly Wagner and his works were adopted as cultural symbols by Hitler and the Third Reich, but was his output misused by the Nazis, or does it contain elements that made appropriation possible?

very interesting q...I would like to find out more.

[aaronliu]

ufonium, also, I was trying to modulate my interest in the topic to perhaps avoid being directed elsewhere...

[Lars Trawen]

.

[Steve Marcus]

the musical significance of Richard Wagner--has been important to me for a long time, and I would like to have people to talk about it with...I want to talk with tubaists

Here's a Wagner- and tuba-specific (although NOT Wagner tuben, which aren't, strictly speaking, tubas anyway) question:

With the acknowledgement that rules are made to be broken, is it generally chronologically true that Wagner's tuba parts that exploited/suggested the use of the larger contrabass tuba began with The Ring and that his earlier operas are generally played on bass tuba?

[aaronliu]

All the posts are fascinating. I will try to get to them in the next few days, like when I get home from work this week...thank you sincerely, all.

[barry grrr-ero]

A tremendous amount of books have been written on Christ, Hitler and Richard Wagner. You won't have any trouble finding a myriad of different view points. Just speaking for myself, I like to focus on Wagner the musician and NOT Wagner the person - he's dead, the music isn't.

[PMeuph]

I don't want to go to an academic forum--too dry for me. I want to talk with tubaists, now that I've taken up the tuba.

I probably shouldn't respond, since I'm an academic and thus too dry for you, but Wagner is the most written-about musician in history. Unless you're talking about tuba-specific issues, why would you limit yourself to tubenet?

That's a fairly substantial statement to make. I believe you may be right, but it don't think it a statement that would not be challenged by others. Having no real way to verify your statement, I did a quick search on RILM and discovered that Wolfgang amadeus Mozart has more entries than Richard Wagner. Ludwig Van Beethoven was also in the same ballpark.




All that said, I agree with the nature of your thought, Wagner is one of the most written about composer's and the research, discussions and theses concerning him are probably the broadest of any composer.

[MikeMason]

Good tuba parts. I'm a fan.

[Ace]

I like Jews. I like Wagner. I can like both. I'm complex like that.

+1 Ace

[ufonium2]

That's a fairly substantial statement to make. I believe you may be right, but it don't think it a statement that would not be challenged by others. Having no real way to verify your statement, I did a quick search on RILM and discovered that Wolfgang amadeus Mozart has more entries than Richard Wagner. Ludwig Van Beethoven was also in the same ballpark.

All that said, I agree with the nature of your thought, Wagner is one of the most written about composer's and the research, discussions and theses concerning him are probably the broadest of any composer.

The statement didn't originate with me; I think it's in the Grout, although I don't have it in front of me to know. You can see it referenced in articles all over, but not sourced, and I doubt it's even possible to get an accurate count. And I would argue that RILM is misleading because it only goes back to the 1960s and doesn't (as far as I know) catalog the popular (non-music) press, so the bajillion newspaper articles written about Wagner during his lifetime wouldn't factor into RILM (and Wagner, being much more controversial than Mozart, surely had a lot more press in that sphere).

But yeah, my basic point was that this seems like a weird place for a broad discussion of someone whose life and works have been discussed and analyzed to the point of absurdity (IMO, anyway). But since I'm here, I'll chime in:

Tristan chord=not a big deal.

[aaronliu]

Will catch up on discussion. For now, posting a performance of Die Walkure which I am liking as I watch it. Copenhagen...just one scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPcrqkViZKw" target="_blank" target="_blank

Here's another thing I found: Sir George Solti, audio only, Die Walkure, Bayreuth, 1983. Seems to have a lot of energy...looking forward to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5RqfFPWSrE" target="_blank

[PMeuph]

That's a fairly substantial statement to make. I believe you may be right, but it don't think it a statement that would not be challenged by others. Having no real way to verify your statement, I did a quick search on RILM and discovered that Wolfgang amadeus Mozart has more entries than Richard Wagner. Ludwig Van Beethoven was also in the same ballpark.

All that said, I agree with the nature of your thought, Wagner is one of the most written about composer's and the research, discussions and theses concerning him are probably the broadest of any composer.

The statement didn't originate with me; I think it's in the Grout, although I don't have it in front of me to know. You can see it referenced in articles all over, but not sourced, and I doubt it's even possible to get an accurate count. And I would argue that RILM is misleading because it only goes back to the 1960s and doesn't (as far as I know) catalog the popular (non-music) press, so the bajillion newspaper articles written about Wagner during his lifetime wouldn't factor into RILM (and Wagner, being much more controversial than Mozart, surely had a lot more press in that sphere).

But yeah, my basic point was that this seems like a weird place for a broad discussion of someone whose life and works have been discussed and analyzed to the point of absurdity (IMO, anyway). But since I'm here, I'll chime in:

Tristan chord=not a big deal.

RILM goes back to 1922.



RE: Tristan


*Works well in tuba euph quartet. (I transposed it down a 5th)

[aaronliu]

Wagner-related technical question:

last chord of Die Walkure is a glorious, long, E major chord, so I'd play the root, E, with valves 234 on a 5 valve noncompensating CC tuba, right?
that's the valve combination that has the most additional tubing, right?
the 2nd valve adds a half step of tubing, the third valve adds 3 half steps, the fourth valve adds 5 more half steps
so that's a total of 1+3+5=9 half steps
9 half steps down from C is E flat
but you need longer tubing to achieve the desired pitch lowering
that is why the note you get is E natural, not E flat, right?

[barry grrr-ero]

"For now, posting a performance of Die Walkure which I am liking as I watch it. Copenhagen...just one scene."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPcrqkViZKw" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

. . . so with their black, fuzzy wings and copious amount of champagne swilling while in battle, I presume these are sort of punk rock Rheinmaidens (?)

[Rick Denney]

Wagner-related technical question:

last chord of Die Walkure is a glorious, long, E major chord, so I'd play the root, E, with valves 234 on a 5 valve noncompensating CC tuba, right?
that's the valve combination that has the most additional tubing, right?
the 2nd valve adds a half step of tubing, the third valve adds 3 half steps, the fourth valve adds 5 more half steps
so that's a total of 1+3+5=9 half steps
9 half steps down from C is E flat
but you need longer tubing to achieve the desired pitch lowering
that is why the note you get is E natural, not E flat, right?

When you hold the fourth valve down, you turn the C bugle into a G bugle. The second and third valves are long enough to lower the C bugle by 1 and 3 semitones, respectively, but they are not long enough to lower a G bugle by that much. So the note you get is sharp, the more valves are used in combination, particularly combinations that include the third and fourth valves. Don't count half-steps when adding more than the second valve to the fourth valve. Count cents sharp or flat instead and use the fingering that works.

The fifth valve is the same length as the first valve on a G bugle. So, the low F is (accurately) 4-5. Adding the second valve to that might get the correct E. But 2-3-4 might also work, depending on the instrument and how the valve branches are tuned. (I use 2-3-4 on 5-valve F tubas for the low A, which is the similar note).

By the way, I suspect there has never been more than a handful of prototype compensating C contrabass tubas, and all of those were of the 3+1 British style. You really don't need to clarify that a 5-valve C tuba has non-compensating valves.

Rick "who thinks the Ride of the Valkyries is easier on a Bb tuba" Denney