Richard Wagner

[ufonium2]

That's a fairly substantial statement to make. I believe you may be right, but it don't think it a statement that would not be challenged by others. Having no real way to verify your statement, I did a quick search on RILM and discovered that Wolfgang amadeus Mozart has more entries than Richard Wagner. Ludwig Van Beethoven was also in the same ballpark.

All that said, I agree with the nature of your thought, Wagner is one of the most written about composer's and the research, discussions and theses concerning him are probably the broadest of any composer.

The statement didn't originate with me; I think it's in the Grout, although I don't have it in front of me to know. You can see it referenced in articles all over, but not sourced, and I doubt it's even possible to get an accurate count. And I would argue that RILM is misleading because it only goes back to the 1960s and doesn't (as far as I know) catalog the popular (non-music) press, so the bajillion newspaper articles written about Wagner during his lifetime wouldn't factor into RILM (and Wagner, being much more controversial than Mozart, surely had a lot more press in that sphere).

But yeah, my basic point was that this seems like a weird place for a broad discussion of someone whose life and works have been discussed and analyzed to the point of absurdity (IMO, anyway). But since I'm here, I'll chime in:

Tristan chord=not a big deal.

[aaronliu]

Will catch up on discussion. For now, posting a performance of Die Walkure which I am liking as I watch it. Copenhagen...just one scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPcrqkViZKw" target="_blank" target="_blank

Here's another thing I found: Sir George Solti, audio only, Die Walkure, Bayreuth, 1983. Seems to have a lot of energy...looking forward to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5RqfFPWSrE" target="_blank

[PMeuph]

That's a fairly substantial statement to make. I believe you may be right, but it don't think it a statement that would not be challenged by others. Having no real way to verify your statement, I did a quick search on RILM and discovered that Wolfgang amadeus Mozart has more entries than Richard Wagner. Ludwig Van Beethoven was also in the same ballpark.

All that said, I agree with the nature of your thought, Wagner is one of the most written about composer's and the research, discussions and theses concerning him are probably the broadest of any composer.

The statement didn't originate with me; I think it's in the Grout, although I don't have it in front of me to know. You can see it referenced in articles all over, but not sourced, and I doubt it's even possible to get an accurate count. And I would argue that RILM is misleading because it only goes back to the 1960s and doesn't (as far as I know) catalog the popular (non-music) press, so the bajillion newspaper articles written about Wagner during his lifetime wouldn't factor into RILM (and Wagner, being much more controversial than Mozart, surely had a lot more press in that sphere).

But yeah, my basic point was that this seems like a weird place for a broad discussion of someone whose life and works have been discussed and analyzed to the point of absurdity (IMO, anyway). But since I'm here, I'll chime in:

Tristan chord=not a big deal.

RILM goes back to 1922.



RE: Tristan


*Works well in tuba euph quartet. (I transposed it down a 5th)

[aaronliu]

Wagner-related technical question:

last chord of Die Walkure is a glorious, long, E major chord, so I'd play the root, E, with valves 234 on a 5 valve noncompensating CC tuba, right?
that's the valve combination that has the most additional tubing, right?
the 2nd valve adds a half step of tubing, the third valve adds 3 half steps, the fourth valve adds 5 more half steps
so that's a total of 1+3+5=9 half steps
9 half steps down from C is E flat
but you need longer tubing to achieve the desired pitch lowering
that is why the note you get is E natural, not E flat, right?

[barry grrr-ero]

"For now, posting a performance of Die Walkure which I am liking as I watch it. Copenhagen...just one scene."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPcrqkViZKw" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

. . . so with their black, fuzzy wings and copious amount of champagne swilling while in battle, I presume these are sort of punk rock Rheinmaidens (?)

[Rick Denney]

Wagner-related technical question:

last chord of Die Walkure is a glorious, long, E major chord, so I'd play the root, E, with valves 234 on a 5 valve noncompensating CC tuba, right?
that's the valve combination that has the most additional tubing, right?
the 2nd valve adds a half step of tubing, the third valve adds 3 half steps, the fourth valve adds 5 more half steps
so that's a total of 1+3+5=9 half steps
9 half steps down from C is E flat
but you need longer tubing to achieve the desired pitch lowering
that is why the note you get is E natural, not E flat, right?

When you hold the fourth valve down, you turn the C bugle into a G bugle. The second and third valves are long enough to lower the C bugle by 1 and 3 semitones, respectively, but they are not long enough to lower a G bugle by that much. So the note you get is sharp, the more valves are used in combination, particularly combinations that include the third and fourth valves. Don't count half-steps when adding more than the second valve to the fourth valve. Count cents sharp or flat instead and use the fingering that works.

The fifth valve is the same length as the first valve on a G bugle. So, the low F is (accurately) 4-5. Adding the second valve to that might get the correct E. But 2-3-4 might also work, depending on the instrument and how the valve branches are tuned. (I use 2-3-4 on 5-valve F tubas for the low A, which is the similar note).

By the way, I suspect there has never been more than a handful of prototype compensating C contrabass tubas, and all of those were of the 3+1 British style. You really don't need to clarify that a 5-valve C tuba has non-compensating valves.

Rick "who thinks the Ride of the Valkyries is easier on a Bb tuba" Denney

[ppalan]

I do not pretend to be anything resembling a musicologist but I've always found the "Tristan chord" intriguing at the very least. As with many conventions in music, we listen with today's ears and say "I've heard that before, no big deal." People listening at the first time may have heard it differently. ...composers especially... For me, the essence of this particular chord is the following:

In Tristan, Wagner lingers on unresolved sounds, rather than conclusive ones. Wherever a musical full stop might seem inevitable (as at the end of the great Act II love duet) it is abruptly redirected. Any sense of completion is left hanging, until the very end. Tristan’s music is more descriptive of the search than the goal. That concept alone suggested new freedoms in harmony and flow that have influenced music ever since.

This is the final paragraph of an article that may found here:
http://www.roh.org.uk/news/tristan-und- ... stan-chord and was part of the advertising for a performance of the opera in November 2014.

...just one man's opinion...
I actually enjoy playing the Tristan Prelude tuba part as much as any of the other Wagner excerpts.
Pete

[Three Valves]

I like Jews. I like Wagner.

I like the Java Jive

and it likes me!!

[barry grrr-ero]

I've listened to the entire "Ring of the Nibelungen" several times, and I've come to the conclusion that the Ring is both a feminist tale (all the men are losers) and a comedy. That's not your usual analysis of it.

Barry Guerrero

[aaronliu]

beautiful playing: Riccardo Muti conducting; Die Walkure, 1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsPvTa3oHeU" target="_blank"

[aaronliu]

Wagner-related technical question:

last chord of Die Walkure is a glorious, long, E major chord, so I'd play the root, E, with valves 234 on a 5 valve noncompensating CC tuba, right?
that's the valve combination that has the most additional tubing, right?
the 2nd valve adds a half step of tubing, the third valve adds 3 half steps, the fourth valve adds 5 more half steps
so that's a total of 1+3+5=9 half steps
9 half steps down from C is E flat
but you need longer tubing to achieve the desired pitch lowering
that is why the note you get is E natural, not E flat, right?

When you hold the fourth valve down, you turn the C bugle into a G bugle. The second and third valves are long enough to lower the C bugle by 1 and 3 semitones, respectively, but they are not long enough to lower a G bugle by that much. So the note you get is sharp, the more valves are used in combination, particularly combinations that include the third and fourth valves. Don't count half-steps when adding more than the second valve to the fourth valve. Count cents sharp or flat instead and use the fingering that works.

The fifth valve is the same length as the first valve on a G bugle. So, the low F is (accurately) 4-5. Adding the second valve to that might get the correct E. But 2-3-4 might also work, depending on the instrument and how the valve branches are tuned. (I use 2-3-4 on 5-valve F tubas for the low A, which is the similar note).

By the way, I suspect there has never been more than a handful of prototype compensating C contrabass tubas, and all of those were of the 3+1 British style. You really don't need to clarify that a 5-valve C tuba has non-compensating valves.

Rick "who thinks the Ride of the Valkyries is easier on a Bb tuba" Denney

Rick thank you very much for this. I will digest it. Exactly the type of stuff I was looking for.

[aaronliu]

1967 rendition of Die Walkure. Has wonderful singing, accomplished orchestral playing, and a sensuous, stately feel--in black and white: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkcoWXvEYYE" target="_blank

[PaulMaybery]

Mark Twain said something to this effect. "I have it on good account, that Wagner's music is really much better than it sounds."

BTW I find the "Ride" on the CC BAT a piece of cake, but then I have not yet, nor probably ever will, win an audition is a great "top" tier orchestra.
Bnat is one of my favorite keys. With the exception of the A sharp, the second finger is down most of the way.

The "Fafner" solos are a hoot as well. What a great breathing exercise.

Paul "who thinks nothing is really difficult once it is mastered" Maybery

[Tom]

Ok, so you like Wagner and are into the Ring Cycle.

Buy this:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Ring-Nibel ... ring+cycle

And read this while you listen to that:

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Resounding-R ... resounding

I am of the opinion that everyone should listen to the Ring Cycle top-to-bottom at least once in their lifetime. I don't mean all in one continuous sitting, but in reasonably quick succession and in order. It is certainly an experience...you just need to decide for yourself what you think of it.

[Three Valves]

It's a shame Wagner's Rinse Cycle was unfinished.

[aaronliu]

Thanks to everyone who posted. I haven't been able to read most of the posts yet.

I spent a lot of time listening to the operas in the Ring cycle.

I think that Wagner was a harmonic genius. His modulations keep throwing me, and I am working on developing an ear for them.

In terms of the political questions, I decided soon after starting this thread that it does not matter that much to me that Wagner expressed antisemitic beliefs and that Hitler was enamoured of him. Any person can appropriate the work of another. We can't do anything about it. I also learned that Wagner was narcissistic and had an unstable personal life, characterized by transient relationships and disregard for the needs of others. That is unfortunate, but his work still speaks for itself.

I am glad to have found out what I did about him. It's rounded out my musical experience significantly. If anyone wants to talk about Wagner's approach to harmony and composing, standing invitation to get in touch with me.