King Rotary Tubas (CC or BBb)

[Watchman]

After the long discussion in the latest CC vs BBb thread, I've developed an interest in these horns and, after reading up about them in the archives, I have a few questions maybe some of you all might be able to answer.

1. Were these instruments "made to order", or did King produce a certain amount in a given year? It doesn't seem like there are that many out there.

2. Some adverts list six possible finishes. Anyone know what those finishes were?

3. How big were these? I know there's that really tall one, but the "normal" size ones had 20" upright bells. However, I can't really tell from the pictures I've seen if this is a compact design. Would they be considered a 5/4 by today's standards?

4. Bore size is a little confusing. I see .689 listed as the bore sometimes and .750 in some other cases.

5. Any clones of this model out there other than the MW "Bill Bell" model?

6. Finally....any idea why they did their valves backwards?

Thanks for reading.

[PaulMaybery]

I owned one of the original 6 CCs made ca. 1940 for Bill Bell and colleagues from 1975 until 2014. The bore was the same as the modern Kings. I think @.687 or something like that. My bell was 20 inches, but others were smaller @16. Yes, there were larger bore models that look similar - usually with a recording bell, and there were BBb versions of the .687. The CC had an unusual tilted valve block that the .750 Larger BBb did not. Though the large spatulas were standard on both.
Some of these BBbs are still in use. I also know of at least one large CC somewhere in Michigan.

According to Abe Torchinsky (my teacher back in the 60s) the 3rd valve slide was moved upward as an 'after market' customization, (some done by King) If you have one of the 1940 horns you will see a little blemish were the brace used to be. Bell apparently had 2 of them, one had the altered 3rd valve slide, the other did not. I believe Mike Lynch owns these now.

My understanding is that a 2nd batch was made in the 1950s, and those were not tauted as playing all that well, at least by comparison. On those the upward 3rd valve slide was done in production, hence no blemish.

In the late 60's MW introduced the Wm. Bell model with 4 or 5 valves. In 1969, I had one with a fixed bell with 5 valves. It was rather stuffy (maybe the 5th valve - it was right above the 1st.) and not a particularly great instrument. The 3 partial G was VERY flat, much more so than on the original.

I was able to purchase the King in 1975 as it was sent to Philly, thinking Paul Kryzwicki in the PO might like to have a horn like his predecessor - Abe Torchinsky. He did not, and I was able to secure it and have it restored.

I eventually got around to playing all but one of the 6 and the one I had (of course) by far had the best intonation. The 3rd partial G was flat but not as extreme as the others. (1 & 3 was the prescribe fingering.) The 5th partial (e) was right on the money and the 6th (g) a little sharp. Maybe it was because of the 20 inch bell compared to the 16 inchers.

Back to the original King. The sound on the horn was enormous and with a glorious character, but intonation was the quirky element. Slotting was also not very focused. You really had to be on your game to really center the pitch.

The string action rotary valves were unique, but not that effective. To me they always felt a little 'spongy' especially when I was playing band music and mashing things in the dogfights of marches or orchestral transcriptions. It was similar to expecting trumpet valve velocity from french horn valves.

It was also not easy to hold. I recall Torchy had is lead pipe angled upward a bit and played with the tuba resting on a flat seated chair, which he always insisted upon having.
Slide pulling was more or less expected with this horn. So there were some ergonomic issues to address.

After holding on to the horn for almost 40 years, I finally let it go last year to Mark Jones who I believe is giving it a nice home in his collection. I used it in the Minnesota Orchestra and also in the Mel Torme Band and soloed with Mel in "Blues in the Night" Mel loved the buttery sound that I could get in his 'sax-like' tuba parts. So all things aside, I did have a nice history with the instrument, but today I just don't want to have to fight with an old relic just because it has a pedigree.

Paul "who likes to ramble away" Maybery

[Dan Schultz]

I expect Mike Lynch to 'chime in' here any moment!

There have been length discussions regarding how many of the King .687" bore rotary CC tubas were produced. Some sources say there were seven in the original batch. Of those seven... only four or five have come forward. There are no records saying there were more batches of the horns produced. H. N. White/King did a terrible job of maintaining records. The production facilities changed several times and some records actually burned.

Some of the advertising literature suggests that the rotary .687" bore tubas were also produced in BBb but to my knowledge... none have ever surfaced. The only BBb rotary Kings I've known about had a .750" bore.

Parts for the rotary CC Kings were common to the 1240 models except for a couple of the open bugle bows and one large ferrule. However... the bottom bow, bell stack, and detachable bells were the same. I've seen 22" recording bells, 22" upright bells, and 19" upright bells. I've never seen an ORIGINAL 16" bell and suspect they were cut from the factory bells. The industry bent over backwards to please the artists of the day and King was responsible for quite a bit of undocumented custom work such as bell sizes and tuning slide locations.

Some say White bought European valve sections while others said they simply brought European craftsmen over to set up operations here in the US. It's sad but there was little documentation and anyone working in the trade in the 30's and 40's are well beyond remembering much.

All the have to go on is a little bit of lore and a lot of speculation.

By-the-way, Paul... the horn you sold to Mark is now living in a collection in a suburb of Orlando. That 16" bell was cut from a conventional King bell.

[Watchman]

Really nice info. Thanks! I had no idea the CC tubas were so few in number. I'm assuming they made more of the BBb version of this instrument? Did any of the CC tubas have a fifth valve?

[Watchman]

That's a really interesting picture. Anyone know what became of Bell's tuba?

[Watchman]

That's a really interesting picture. Anyone know what became of Bell's tuba?

Many famous tubas have found retirement in Texas.

What's in Texas?

[bisontuba]

And in the pic, Bell is seated at the far table in front of the French Horn player...
Mark

[eupher61]

a private collection of epic proportions. Several of Bell's tubas, some of much older players, the Hoffnung CCC, many unique or otherwise significant (to tuba players) instruments. The owner doesn't seek publicity about the collection, but he's quite open to "chime in" when asked about something.

[Dan Schultz]

What's in Texas?

The Alamo

[bort]

Ya know, a guy once had his bike stolen, and he had to pick it up from the basement of the Alamo.

[iiipopes]

And in the pic, Bell is seated at the far table in front of the French Horn player...
Mark

I like the bassoon player with his reed "secured" on his temple with his glasses.

[Watchman]

a private collection of epic proportions. Several of Bell's tubas, some of much older players, the Hoffnung CCC, many unique or otherwise significant (to tuba players) instruments. The owner doesn't seek publicity about the collection, but he's quite open to "chime in" when asked about something.

Hold the phone...so there's this giant collection of rare tubas that some dude in Texas owns? How does it compare to Vince's collection?

[Watchman]

hah! A tempting offer, but I'll have to pass.

[bort]

hah! A tempting offer, but I'll have to pass.

Uh, did you SEE how big that case it? More room in there than on a regular seat in the bus!

[T. J. Ricer]

I found this old thread interesting and informative: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10805" target="_blank

Anyone know an email address for Paul Haugen? (I sent a pm, but it doesn't look like he's visited TubeNet in a few years).

Does anyone know what mouthpiece Bell, Novotny, or Torchinsky used with these beasts? Also, what do any of you use with them? Modern? Period HN White MP?

-T. J.

[PaulMaybery]

Paul H. may have passed away several years ago. If he disagrees I stand corrected. and apologetic.

[Watchman]

Paul H. may have passed away several years ago. If he disagrees I stand corrected. and apologetic.

Yep.

[PaulMaybery]

T.J.
On the MP issue and regarding Abe. He did use the King 26 and a crusty old Helleberg. What particular Helleberg size I can only guess that it was not the Geib, though he did study with Fred. I recall tooting on it once and it had a relatively round rim. It has been a long time since my lessons in Philadelphia with Abe in 1964-69, but I coveted that horn. I managed to weasel one like it from the 1st 1940-41 batch (with papers from HN White) and used it regulary as my main tuba for nearly 40 years and just let it go last year. It was a cool horn, but had so many quirks that by modern standards I felt I could do so much better. But "cool" it is. I used the same mps as Abe, but also used a Bach 18, 24AW and a Conn 2 from time to time. I did try large babies and a Holton 52 Revelation worked wonderful on it. Big warm buttery sound. That one is similar in size to the PT88 and the copy of the Chief that Wessex offers. Smallish mps tended to back up on it when I tried them.
Best wishes. Paul

[EdFirth]

I'm looking at a King ad for New Monster Size King Basses and it has the C in .687 and .750 but the Bb is only listed at 750. I know there were probably very few .750 C's made but Dan Shultz has one so there was at least one made. I wonder how many .687 Bb's there are. Mabye they were a custom order. Paul, your C that you sold to Mark Jones is here in town. The finest repairman I know purchased it and says there was a lot of tension and that when he got everything where it wanted to be that it played a lot better. I did play it After he worked on it and was blown away.I played Joe Novotny's King when it was here for some work and your old horn was maybe even better. I own a Bb four valve with the valves straight up and down while there's another one (the guy who owns Paul's former horn owns it) with the more slanted valves. I think Meinl Weston uses the slant thing even now. They have quite a sound. To the OP, from what I hear there were about 100 Bb's and 7 C's. They were handmade, HN White was trying to keep their best workers employed during the depression, so they are all a little different. I played mine at the Candelight Orchestra at Disney at Christmastime six nights a week for the last 5 years and never got so much feedback from such a wide range of folks, The brass ans herald trumpets, The pro choir, and even the audience.One of the narrators who is a famous musician stopped me going offstage to give some way too kind feedback. I used a PT 50+ on most of those shows. It's a neat, custom horn with it's quirks but a Very fine sound. There's a college in the Midwest with four Bb's in the cases, in a storage locker. Aren't old great horns cool? Ed

[Dan Schultz]

I'm looking at a King ad for New Monster Size King Basses and it has the C in .687 and .750 but the Bb is only listed at 750. I know there were probably very few .750 C's made but Dan Shultz has one so there was at least one made......

Hi, Ed! The King rotary CC I owned is a CC with a .687" bore. Our conversation might have been a little confusing because I also own a .750" bore rotary BBb like yours.

I've never seen a King rotary CC in anything but a .687" bore. Likewise... all of the King rotary BBb tubas I've seen are .750" bore.