Eb vs. F

fpoon · Post by **fpoon** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:11 am

So I'm looking for a solo-type horn. I play on my Bb York Master all the time. It's my main (and only at the moment) axe. It's got a pretty tight high end to it, but I think a higher pitched horn is the way to go.

Are Eb's easier to play for folks who are used to Bb's, and F's easier for folks used to playing CC horns? Or is it way more complicated than that?

chevy68chv · Post by **chevy68chv** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:32 am

If your at all used to reading treble clef then the Eb would probably be easier to learn. I started learning F right after I started playing C. For me adding the F tuba was a lot easier than learning C tuba. Anyways, buy the horn that you think sounds the best, not because you think it will be easier to learn.

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:28 am

IÂ´d like to chime in with chevy68... here.
No matter what the new horn may be, difficulties with the new pitch and fingering will always be the same.
Keep in mind: youÂ´re used to thinking of a certain note and your brain goes: "O.K., roughly 136 Hz, that is THIS much tension in the lips and NO valves pressed." It may add: "and itÂ´s called Bb"
So, especially if playing memorized music, your brain will have to make that adaption of connecting "old" sounds (frequencies) to new body feel (is that an english expression ?), which is kind of awkward on ANY new pitch.
F horns have an advantage, though, when combined with BBb tubas: both use 0 valves for their F notes, which are VERY common in literature, so up to a point the fingerings below those will be the same on both horns, especially if you include alternate fingerings.
Just a few thoughts, FWIW.
Hans

W · Post by W » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:03 am

Another thing to have in mind I think is the MOST important thing to consider, as Gene Pokorny has said in his Orch Excerpt CD that the most important thing is your sound. In this case, the sound that you want. Even just with F tuba there are MANY different sounds putting into account of sizes (3/4, 4/4, 6/4), brand, piston vs. rotary, German/American style, bright vs. dark. Eb tuba I would say is more a better all-around horn compared with F tubas (except the Yamaha 822). F tuba tends to sound brighter than Eb, not always. But there are certain traits that hold common with both types of tubas. Also, take into consideration that you'll probably have more variety with F tubas than Eb tubas since there are more on the market.

KarlMarx · Post by **KarlMarx** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:34 am

tubeast wrote:Keep in mind: youÂ´re used to thinking of a certain note and your brain goes: "O.K., roughly 136 Hz, that is THIS much tension in the lips and NO valves pressed." It may add: "and itÂ´s called Bb"

136 Hz rather is a slightly flat C#.

An A would be 110 Hz.

A Bb would be 116.5 Hz.

Carolus Marximus Calculatus

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:52 am

Oh. Ooops. Make that 116 Hz, then. DonÂ´t keep a chart next to my computer. Just remembered low BBb to be at about 68 Hz.
The general idea remains the same.

dunelandmusic · Post by **dunelandmusic** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:49 am

I agree with the above posts, get out there, play the horns,hear how they sound. When I first started reading this board, over 6 years ago, I became convinced I wanted an F. I went out and played a few, didn't like them at all. I always say me on an F sounded like a bad baritone. A few years later I ventured into Eb, partly because of Patrick Sheridan, and found a sound I really liked. It's a sound I respond to. Your results may very, and yes, fingerings are an issue no matter what you do, you just deal with it.

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:14 pm

I prefer Eb because a low Bb is a very common note in tuba music, and to play that on an Eb is simple and much better sounding compared to producing the same note on an F tuba.
-Eric

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:15 pm

The issue of frequency of occurrence of notes is a red herring when choosing a tuba. Low F# is an awkward note on an F tuba, yet how many key signatures include it? Well, all of the sharp keys contain it, as do two of the flat key signatures (Gb and Cb). Heckuva choice for playing orchestral music, huh?

Pick what sounds the best to you.

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:48 pm

It's too bad people would rather create straw man arguments and call people names than actually refute the statements with which they disagree.

-Eric

Charlie Goodman · Post by **Charlie Goodman** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:04 pm

Did you respond to the wrong post or something? Compared to both the college threads and the high-school-band political threads of late, this thread has been both civil and full of reason.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:08 pm

As a rank amateur I only played a BBb since I first learned tuba (high school in 1970). Last January I decided to buy a bass tuba to use in the larger band in which I play (4 other tuba players), for the rare solo and small ensemble playing that I do, and as a challenge to keep myself learning. I ended up choosing an Eb because I thought that the sound was not quite as soloistic as the F tubas that I tried (at the US Army Band TEC), which would work better for what I thought I wanted.

Learning the fingerings was not too bad. I found that after about a month of practicing at home I was able to make it through a rehearsal on the Eb (ok, it was just a community band, and there were more fingering mistakes than usual). After a little over a year I feel very comfortable going back and forth, although I am still more comfortable with my BBb. The one note that seems to keep tripping me up is the Dd/C# in the staff. I keep wanting to play 2nd valve.

I find that the low range is fine on my Eb, down to the low Eb (4 ledger lines) and below. I have a Besson 983, which is a compensating 4 valve and intonation is quite useable down in that range, which is better than most of the experiences I have heard about F tubas in the same range, at least in the hands of amateurs.

The choice of the right bass tuba for you depends on the type of playing you will be using it for, and what allows you to generate the sound you are looking for. The specific key isn't as important. That said, I think that an Eb tuba is a good complement to my BBb, and in fact could serve as my only tuba if it had too.

fpoon · Post by **fpoon** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:24 pm

Good comments all around. Question remains:

Whats easier for a Bb guy to switch to, an F or an Eb? Assume for the sake of argument I was put into a room in which there was an Eb in one corner and an F in the other. Both alike in quality, size, build, etc. Which would be easier for me, the Bb player to pick up easiest?

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:34 pm

fpoon,
Bb players generally relate naturally to Eb horns and CC guys usually relate more easily to F.
I agree with Doc that an extra special sweet sounding horn would be tempting to acquire even if it is in an awkward key.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:47 pm

all this debate on which is easier will be just so much water under the bridge in 6 weeks if you get serious. decide what you want to sound like,find that horn regardless of key/valve type/finish and just buy it. life is short-play hard...

Z-Tuba Dude · Post by **Z-Tuba Dude** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:23 am

I think that a BBb player would find an F, or Eb, equally easy/challenging to learn. You just need to learn a different set of fingerings, period. Eb & F fingerings are each equally different from BBb.

Besides, I find that the biggest problems in playing multiple keyed tubas, are not the different fingerings, but rather the similar fingerings! When you play a note that happens to have the same fingering, as one of the other horns, you can accidentally slip into that other horn's fingerings. For me, it would actually be easier if all of the fingerings were different!

fpoon · Post by **fpoon** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:25 am

I didn't think about that! Great point, that similair fingerings can actually be a BAD thing!

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:28 pm

One other consideration is price. Everything else being equal, Eb tubas are less expensive than F. If you are planning to make a living with the horn then the difference in price is probably less important than getting the sound you want, but for an amateur it can be the deciding factor.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:13 pm

Several years ago I made the transition from Eb to BBb. Even at 55 years of age, I found the transition quite easy. All it took was a couple of weeks and I did it simply by immersion. I found several play-along CD's and 'just did it'. Now, I can switch back and forth fluently... in the midde of a tune if I want. I had an F and a CC for a while but I think the transition between Eb and BBb to be the easiest.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:24 pm

TubaTinker wrote:Several years ago I made the transition from Eb to BBb. Even at 55 years of age, I found the transition quite easy. All it took was a couple of weeks and I did it simply by immersion. I found several play-along CD's and 'just did it'. Now, I can switch back and forth fluently... in the midde of a tune if I want. I had an F and a CC for a while but I think the transition between Eb and BBb to be the easiest.

Immersion is the key to doing a switch. When I take up a new instrument I "just do it" by playing (sight-reading) a lot of music for that instrument. When I can sight read reasonably up to speed I figure I've got it learned well enough to go play it in a group. Depending on how much time I can find to put into it, and also how difficult the music is that I'll have to play, that can take a couple weeks or a couple of months. (If I took up something completely new like clarinet I expect it would take a lot longer.)

MA