When does a tuba loose its identity?

[roweenie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus" target="_blank

Probably not dealt with in most music theory courses. Maybe they should rethink that.

Nuts-and-bolts meets philosophy....

That's what makes topics like this so interesting (to me).

[PaulMaybery]

Just remember, intellectual and intelligent are not the same thing.

[jsmn4vu]

Who needs more than three valves?

We really do need a "like" button.

[Donn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Probably not dealt with in most music theory courses. Maybe they should rethink that.

Not if the discussion found at that link is any indication of what they'd be able to do with it.

The meaning of words isn't like the laws of nature, something you can sort out by sufficient thought and experimentation. If you want to know the answer to questions like this, the key is to find out why people ask them. Hence "are you a collector", etc. Or the safe answer, since in generally you don't really know why someone would ask, is any modification makes it not original.

The use of an "illustrative" example like Theseus' boat is just a way to make an easy question unanswerable - since we don't know why anyone would care, any position is defensible. Sort of a "make work" program for philosophers.

[bort]

Sort of a "make work" program for philosophers.

[eupher61]

there identity

they're identity

I guess it's true about the 3rd time being a charm..........you almost made it!
their identity

Thus showing the truth of the notion that the best humor will be completely missed by some.

I'm flattered. No one ever complimented my humor before now.

[eupho]

Frankentubas take on an individual identity of their own. That's why people build them.

[J.Harris]

I'm thinking that a tuba might lose its identity if it is careless with its personal information i.e... social security number or perhaps, in this case, serial number.... Hmmmm

[ghmerrill]

Yes, Bloke is definitely onto something, even though I sense some humor in his remark. I passed a link to this thread on to a philosopher friend of mind whose initial comment was that when he first saw the title and thought I had written it, he feared that I had "loosed" my mind.

He may still be right about that.

However, we're developing a funding request for a "Living Laboratory of Philosophy" where interns and research assistants will build, and then repeatedly rebuild, a ship through the sequential replacement of parts. We also plan to sell tickets for rides on the ship (ships?). The proposal will be to do this on Lake Raleigh, which is on NC State' Centennial Campus -- and we expect it to draw a lot of traffic from the nearby kiddie rides (train, carousel, the "little red boats" my granddaughter loves, etc.) in nearby Pullen Park. I'm hoping to get serious collaboration from both the music department and the NC Wildlife people. If we get music department collaboration, we will be able to have a tuba on the ship that we also rebuild in the same way.

However, there's an even more serious problem that tuba players face than the one illustrated by the ship. It is this (with apologies to Descartes):

I play my tuba every day (well, mostly). But how do I know it's the SAME TUBA? I mean, EVEN IF I HAVEN'T REPLACED ANY PARTS. It's at least possible that, once I go to bed, an evil demon replaces my tuba with a clever copy of it that appears to me to be the same tuba but is in fact a DIFFERENT tuba. How can I know this isn't happening?

Now you might think that this is silly and just the sort of fake problem that a philosopher would make up. But I ask you: Wouldn't this explain those subtle problems you notice with articulation and pitch? Aren't some days better than others for your practicing? Have you been attributing this variation only to YOURSELF? It COULD be the evil demon who is responsible and providing you with a different tuba every day and making devilishly subtle changes to it that you can't detect except in your own performance. And if he's doing that to your tuba, don't you think he's doing the same to your mouthpiece? This is what evil demons do (uh, references are needed here; but I'll get to them later. Pretty sure the proof is somewhere in Descartes' "Meditations" somewhere around the place where he describes drinking brandy in front of a fireplace.).

THIS is the real problem that needs to be solved -- not the parts replacement problem. I've set up a couple of game cams in the house to see if I can catch the demon at work, but nothing has showed up. Of course, the demon is probably invisible and can instantaneously replace the one tuba with the new one. I have no idea how to solve this problem. It's driving me crazy, and my playing isn't getting any better because the damned tuba keeps changing in ways I can't detect.

[jsmn4vu]

Now you might think that this is silly and just the sort of fake problem that a philosopher would make up. But I ask you: Wouldn't this explain those subtle problems you notice with articulation and pitch? Aren't some days better than others for your practicing?

The solution is so obvious I can only shake my head. It's not the tuba, but your corpus that has been replaced overnight. Only your consciousness and the tuba remain intact.

No need to thank me.

[Donn]

Only your consciousness and the tuba remain intact.

It seems like quite a leap of faith to assume that your consciousness has remained intact.

[Three Valves]

Who needs more than three valves?

[Dan Schultz]

Any horn I build I catalog with the serial number on the valve section. Many rotary horns don't carry a serial number on the valve section... such as Miraphones. In the cases where the serial number is on the bell or leadpipe... I carry the serial number over since those numbers are usually unique.

On horns where I change the bell and the serial number is gone... I stamp the original serial number into the paddle bar along with the build date and my initials. I think this is important simply to identify the horn as a custom-build so a new history can begin.

Even 'Frankenhorns' can usually be identified by their parts but a unique serial number helps. In that respect... a horn simply takes on a new identity.

[Rick Denney]

Okay, there are several things happening here (other than the philosophy thing and the grammar lessons). One is the legal definition, which Dan addressed.

But the question is what makes the essence of an instrument? I think, in this order, the bell, the outer branches, the leadpipe, and the valve section. A Holton 345 with a replacement valve section from Meinl-Weston is still, in its essence, a Holton 345. But a Holton 345 with a Meinl-Weston bell is something different. If the bell and bottom bow are from a Meinl-Weston, and the rest is from a Holton 345, then it's a Meinl-Weston with clunky valves (who would do that?).

I think, though, that changing any of those parts requires a qualifier. "This is a Holton 345 with a custom leadpipe." Or something like that.

Of course, any change might be a change for the better, or a change for the worse, depending on one's objectives. Losing its identity as a particularly brand and model might be a small price to pay to get an instrument that, say, plays in tune or has a valves that work.

Rick "who calls them marriages" Denney

[Donn]

A Holton 345 with a replacement valve section from Meinl-Weston is still, in its essence, a Holton 345.

Does it matter how big the difference is, between the original part and the replacement? Some other thread recently brought up an actual example of a Holton 345 at Baltimore Brass with King valves - there was some confusion over stated bore size and I was just skimming, but I think it's the common King bore size, which is what, 0.687 inches? Anyway a much more radical change than the Meinl, I imagine.

Vs. suppose you replace the bell with something that happens to be so close in size and shape that no one would notice until they get close enough to see the engraving. Is that still more important, than the whopping change to the valve bore?

[thevillagetuba]

I think an important distinction is whether the horn is the same make/model or the same horn. No two horns really play exactly the same, but a horn can be improved without losing the make/model distinction.

I had a Miraphone 1291 that I placed the valve caps and buttons on from a MW 45SLP. It drastically changed the compression in the valves because of the flatter cap which allowed the piston to go slightly lower. It was still clearly a 1291, but I felt the necessity to mention the modification when I sold it.

Any time anything is changed, the horn has lost its original identity. No one who played the horn before will know it plays with the new parts, even if they're the same. This is why we mention all of the work that has been done to a horn when we sell it. So, if everything is considered a must-know for a buyer/seller, doesn't that mean that the horn has lost its identity?