buzzing on the mouthpiece...NO one agrees with me, EXCEPT...

[MaryAnn]

Aha...found some stuff: this page on trumpetherald. Read down to get the description of playing the leadpipe. Bill Adam technique of trumpet playing.

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/view ... hp?t=88905" target="_blank

[Doug Elliott]

Bassoon reeds are facing the opposite direction from buffoon reeds.

Lips can be blown apart from a touching position, which is exactly what happens in a buzz. Double reeds would just clamp tighter together if there was no opening.

It's not a valid comparison at all.

[Donn]

With reeds, it depends -- when playing very soft, no touching. Playing very loud, maybe touching. I've had reeds clamp on me, too, but I believe that within the normal balance of oscillation and air flow there is a margin at the upper end where the reed strikes the mouthpiece without interrupting the oscillation. The clamp happens when it hits too early in the cycle and the whole thing breaks down.

Anyway, I think the point of the comparison is not so much whether the tuba player can afford to make lip contact without breaking the oscillation, as whether it's possible to sustain a tone without contact. It is possible, flapping in the breeze works.

[Erik_Sweden]

When reading this thread I start to think I do everything totally wrong: when I buzz without a mouthpiece I get have the lips together, blow and get a sound. I do exactly the same on the tuba (and euphonium). Is this wrong way to do it ?

[MaryAnn]

Not to be argumentative, but: when I play a middle C on the tuba, my lips are NOT touching. Yes there is vibration going on, but it is the edges of the lips. Not at all the same as first clamping and then blowing them apart to make them buzz. If you haven't experienced it, you won't understand it. You don't need to be a high level player to do this....anybody with a modicum of technique can. Whether it is the "correct" way to play, eh....different strokes.

[happyroman]

I'll jump back in with a couple of more points.

First, blowing does not cause the vibration. It is only the fuel source. No air, no vibration. But, just because we blow air across the lips does not mean that they have to vibrate. The vibration is a motor response that is the result of the impulses sent from the brain to the lips ordering the pitch to be played. The lips can resist the air and not vibrate at all if we are not sending the correct message.

For this reason, the comparison between reeds and the lips is not a good one in my opinion. The reed is wood and the lips are flesh and blood. The reed will vibrate in response to the air. There is no connection between the brain and the wooden reed. As stated above, the lips do not work in the same manner as a reed, so the comparison is not very helpful. The only analogy I can recall Mr. Jacobs using is that we want to play with a long embouchure, like a contra-bassoon reed, and not a short embouchure, like an oboe reed.

And to the best of my knowledge, except at the corners, the lips should not touch when they are vibrating. If they do, we will get what is commonly referred to as a double buzz. Mr. Jacobs typically attributed this issue to the lack of a thick enough air column being provided to the embouchure.

[Donn]

First, blowing does not cause the vibration. It is only the fuel source. No air, no vibration. But, just because we blow air across the lips does not mean that they have to vibrate. The vibration is a motor response that is the result of the impulses sent from the brain to the lips ordering the pitch to be played. The lips can resist the air and not vibrate at all if we are not sending the correct message.

For this reason, the comparison between reeds and the lips is not a good one in my opinion. The reed is wood and the lips are flesh and blood. The reed will vibrate in response to the air. There is no connection between the brain and the wooden reed. As stated above, the lips do not work in the same manner as a reed, so the comparison is not very helpful.

On the contrary, the reed is subject to significant control from the player's lips and jaw, and connected in that way to the player's brain. So, same deal - you can blow air through and make sound or no sound, it's up to you. Different story with a "free" reed, e.g. accordion, which just hangs in the wind. In the other example we've seen here, note that the vocal folds have no muscle, they're similar to a reed in that they're controlled by adjusting tension etc.

Whether these comparisons are helpful depends on where we're trying to go with them. I think it came up only because we were interested in the question of whether an oscillating tone generator cycle could be effective if it didn't reach a fully closed state. Those who are convinced that this is true with lips, will say that reeds aren't a good example, but from the other side it does seem to demonstrate that partial closure is enough to set up air column vibration.

[happyroman]

First, blowing does not cause the vibration. It is only the fuel source. No air, no vibration. But, just because we blow air across the lips does not mean that they have to vibrate. The vibration is a motor response that is the result of the impulses sent from the brain to the lips ordering the pitch to be played. The lips can resist the air and not vibrate at all if we are not sending the correct message.

For this reason, the comparison between reeds and the lips is not a good one in my opinion. The reed is wood and the lips are flesh and blood. The reed will vibrate in response to the air. There is no connection between the brain and the wooden reed. As stated above, the lips do not work in the same manner as a reed, so the comparison is not very helpful.

On the contrary, the reed is subject to significant control from the player's lips and jaw, and connected in that way to the player's brain. So, same deal - you can blow air through and make sound or no sound, it's up to you. Different story with a "free" reed, e.g. accordion, which just hangs in the wind. In the other example we've seen here, note that the vocal folds have no muscle, they're similar to a reed in that they're controlled by adjusting tension etc.

Whether these comparisons are helpful depends on where we're trying to go with them. I think it came up only because we were interested in the question of whether an oscillating tone generator cycle could be effective if it didn't reach a fully closed state. Those who are convinced that this is true with lips, will say that reeds aren't a good example, but from the other side it does seem to demonstrate that partial closure is enough to set up air column vibration.

Don't misunderstand, of course the quality of the vibration (and therefore, the sound produced) is controlled by the artist through the subconscious manipulation of their lip and jaw muscles. One could not be a great artist on a woodwind instrument otherwise.

What I am saying is that, at the most basic level, the actual vibration of a wooden reed is solely due to the applied motor force of the air column, which is totally different than for a brass player. The lips vibrate as a result of psycho-motor activity using air as the fuel source for the vibration. With the lips, the air is not the cause of the vibration.

[Erik_Sweden]

Could it be that there are two ways to produce a sound on a tuba:
1: Lips together at start (MPC buzz works)
2: Lips separated at start (MPC buzz don't work)
And when reaching the middle position the double buzz starts ?

[Donn]

What I am saying is that, at the most basic level, the actual vibration of a wooden reed is solely due to the applied motor force of the air column, which is totally different than for a brass player. The lips vibrate as a result of psycho-motor activity using air as the fuel source for the vibration. With the lips, the air is not the cause of the vibration.

You've said something like this above, but it still isn't clear what you mean. At the most basic level, my lips are responding to the air column too. I can't move muscles fast enough to make audible tones, the only control I have is over tension, stiffness, position etc.

That's a lot of control, but it's perfectly analogous to a bassoon reed. That doesn't mean bassoon reeds and brass mouthpieces are interchangeable - they are to some extent but they're grossly different tone generators, just similar in basic principles.

[roweenie]

"Bold" statements, indeed.

"It doesn't really matter how it feels, it matters how it sounds".

"If what I was doing on a tuba was different than what I was doing when I was buzzing on a mouthpiece, what I was doing on the tuba was wrong."

These two statements have a potential to be at odds with each other, I think.

If you (and the others around you) are satisfied with what comes out of your horn while you are doing something "wrong", how can that be? If the end result is "good", what difference does it make "how" you get there?

[UDELBR]

I was surprised to learn there's a sliver cult of ideologues in academia who directly blame mouthpiece buzzing for dystonia.

[Erik_Sweden]

Just saw this on Face Book. Ben van Dijk about MPC buzzing: https://www.facebook.com/Benitobvd?fref=nf

[happyroman]

I was surprised to learn there's a sliver cult of ideologues in academia who directly blame mouthpiece buzzing for dystonia.

I have heard that some people think that playing on "heavy weight" mouthpieces could be a cause of dystonia, but not simply buzzing on the mouthpiece. Where did you hear this?

[TexTuba]

I hear tacos and beer make everyone happy. And, by everyone, I mean myself. Buzz on that.

[eupher61]

The few players I know personally who have ended up with FD didn't use heavy mouthpieces. But, at one point in their respective careers, they did not buzz.

[eupher61]

The few players I know personally who have ended up with FD didn't use heavy mouthpieces. But, at one point in their respective careers, they did not buzz.

[happyroman]

"Bold" statements, indeed.

"It doesn't really matter how it feels, it matters how it sounds".

"If what I was doing on a tuba was different than what I was doing when I was buzzing on a mouthpiece, what I was doing on the tuba was wrong."

These two statements have a potential to be at odds with each other, I think.

If you (and the others around you) are satisfied with what comes out of your horn while you are doing something "wrong", how can that be? If the end result is "good", what difference does it make "how" you get there?

As for the last statement, this is exactly what Arnold Jacobs said, with respect to embouchure. There is no textbook shape for the embouchure. Simply do whatever YOU have to do to sound great. If you sound better than everyone else, they will copy what you do.

The other two statements are actually closely related, according to Mr. Jacobs. He often warned against playing by feel and being overly concerned about how the lips feel when we play. I'll assume that most readers are familiar with his concept of Song and Wind. If not, there are many resources, including Brian Frederiksen's excellent book by the same name where one can do some research on the subject.

The short story is that focusing feel is a sensory activity, or as Mr. Jacobs would say, asking questions. He taught that we play by Song, which is simply hearing what we are playing in our head as we play it. This sends the signal to the lips via psycho-motor activity that causes the lips to vibrate (assuming they are provided with sufficient air as a fuel supply). The issue is that the sensory and motor nerves are one-way streets; the sensory nerves send messages to the brain and the motor nerves send messages to the lips. The same area of the brain sends and receives these messages, and since we cannot do more than one thing at a time well or efficiently, if we are focused on how things feel, we can't send effective messages to the lips. This is why he said it doesn't matter how it feels, it matters how it sounds. By striving to imitate the great sound we are hearing in our head, we train the lips to perform the "vocal chord" activity he calls Song.

EDIT: The other important point is that Mr. Jacobs said that when it sounds great, it will usually feel pretty good too. But, the focus has to be focusing on sounding great rather than how it feels. He wanted us to hear the singer (i.e., a great singer with a voice like the instrument we are playing) in the head simultaneously while we are playing.

In the other statement, Chris Olka was referring to telling Mr. Jacobs that he didn't see the value in practicing on the mouthpiece because it felt different than when he played the tuba. So, we are back to not focusing on feel, as discussed above. Also, to clarify what Mr. Jacobs was saying, is that the approach to playing (i.e., singing with the lips) is the same whether we are playing on the tuba or the mouthpiece alone. It will feel different (but we shouldn't care) and it is harder (at first) when we play on the mouthpiece alone, but the approach of the use of Song, in order to be a "Storyteller of Sound" is the same.

One other note. Mr. Jacobs also said that at the beginning stages of skill development, there will be crudity. This is to be expected. However, by continuing to sing in the head while imagining a great sound, the crudity will be refined over time until the skill is performed at a high level. One of his more famous quotes in this area is "If you cannot accept crudity, you cannot create quality."

As with anything else, learning to play on the mouthpiece alone is a skill that needs to go through the normal stages of development, beginning with crudity.

[happyroman]

As for those in the thread that say, I tried it and it didn't do anything for me, I can accept that statement. I do think that in many cases, those who have tried and decided it wasn't helpful for them, likely were not doing it the way Mr. Jacobs recommended (starting with simple music, like Pop Goes the Weasel or The Saints go Marching In), and/or did not stick with it long enough to get past the initial learning stages and develop the skill until it could be more readily applied to their practice. It has been such a helpful tool for so many people (yours truly included) that I really believe that all it would take is a little perseverance with the correct approach for anyone to receive the benefits of practicing on the mouthpiece.

However, Mr. Lindberg does not say "I tried it and it's not for me." He says that "When you practice on the mouthpiece, you practice a horrible sound." He is not only saying that mouthpiece practice has no value, he is saying that it is detrimental. Now, I have great respect for him as a player (according to Wikipedia, he is one of the two greatest trombone players in the world, along with Joe Alessi). However, for him to make a blanket statement like this is not only incorrect, it is irresponsible.

As I said in my first post in this thread, ANY practice technique applied incorrectly can be detrimental to your playing, including practicing on the mouthpiece alone. However, learning to practice on the mouthpiece correctly (i.e., the way Mr. Jacobs taught), and sticking with it until the skill has been properly developed, is a fantastic practice technique, and one of the best ways, if not the best way, to learn to play a brass instrument efficiently.

[happyroman]

I believe this is where there may be the most disagreement. I (and perhaps Lindberg guy...??) believe that our lips are VIBRATING when we play, whereas some others may perceive that lips are BUZZING (against each other) as we play.

Since I am actually taking the time to go back and read all of the posts, this particular line jumped out at me. Arnold Jacobs also teaches that the lips are vibrating when we play, whether it is on the instrument, the mouthpiece, or a rim/visualizer. That's the whole point. He said we fill the instrument with vibration. The instrument then amplifies the vibration and adds color to the cound. In fact, this is one of the main reasons he was such a strong advocate of practicing on the mouthpiece or rim alone.

He wanted his students to develop an embouchure that "wants to vibrate" as opposed to one that has to be "forced to vibrate." The latter is produced when the student creates excess air pressure by blowing hard against the lips in order to get them to start vibrating. Jacobs wanted the student to learn how to use Song in order to start the vibration through psycho-motor activity. He believed that correct practice on the mouthpiece was a very efficient way to learn how to do this.

He also taught that the lips are not vibrating "against" each other (i.e., they are not touching during playing). There is always an opening (when the air is moving between them), and he wanted the opening to be large (i.e., long) so that more tissue would vibrate, creating more resonance. A longer embouchure also promoted movement up and down (higher and lower notes) more easily.