Sharpness in the Low Register on Small Tubas

[Stephen Shoop]

This is a three part question: (1) Why do smaller tubas (Yamaha BB103, for example) tend to play sharp in the lower register? (2) Would a particular mouthpiece correct the problem? (3) Would a slightly longer (and/or wider) leadpipe correct the problem? Thanks.

[thevillagetuba]

Well, I am no expert, nor do I do a lot of playing on smaller horns, but the 103 (and a lot of horns like it) only have three valves. The valves beyond the 3rd help to play the lower notes in tune with greater ease. Not that you can't play them with a 3-valved horn. These smaller horns typically have a smaller bore and I have always had trouble getting low notes in tune on small-bored horns. Just a guess, and I'm sure someone with much more knowledge will post a more correct answer.

As for mouthpieces, it would be possible to get the bottom register to "flatten out" or be better in tune, but it would do the same to the rest of the horn. If you wanted to try this, I have had much success with larger bowl-shaped pieces. But, you should try a few and see what you like and what could work with what you are playing. I am not a big fan of switching pieces given the music I am playing at the moment, but I have played with guys that do that. I prefer to have one piece that works well across the registers and then to adjust pitches to where they should be with the slides (though I prefer 5+ valves and use a lot of alternates). Not what I think of as the best option, but it could work.

For leadpipe alterations, I would not advise doing this. If you lengthen the lead pipe, then you will alter the pitch of the horn through all registers and not necessarily in the way that you would like. Lengthening the cylindrical part of the horn will not only make the horn longer, but it will throw off the cylindrical/conical ratio, move the nodes, and could possibly throw out all consistency for your notes.

In my experience, there are two ways that work to get the pitch down in the low register. The first would be to work on ghosting the low notes. Typically ghosting starts around the flat E or slight sharp Eb below the low Bb. It won't help much the other notes (such as the G and F) but it could help with the others. What I prefer is to get a 4th valve or a bigger horn (with 4 valves). Just remember what that horn was built for: a beginning student; and they would not be expected to play the extremes of the range on that instrument.

So, your best bet for the notes that are below the Bb and above the E would be to find a slightly bigger mouthpiece, if you don't play those notes all that often. If you do need to play them regularly and with some size and volume in the sound, I would look into a horn better equipped for that.

My opinion, and I'm sure others will give better qualified ones that might agree and others might disagree. But, I feel you might be trying to take this horn further than it can go (like haul a big boat with a little Hyundai Accent; you can do it if you try, but it's not the best or even an ideal situation).

[swillafew]

How low are you going? If you like small horns try an F tuba. The fingerings below low F are a breeze and the horn is half the length of a BBb on those notes, which makes them feel a lot easier to center (at least for me). My F horns sound decent down to the A below a pedal Bb (again, at least for me). If you do a lot of extended register playing get another valve.

[Dan Schultz]

Doesn't seem to me that this is something confined to just smaller tubas. Most every tuba I've ever owned required somewhat of a compromise between the low register and in the staff... at least as far as the open partials are concerned. On a BBb tuba... if I tune the Bb in the staff, the BBb below the staff is almost always sharp.

[thevillagetuba]

My problem seems to lie all across the range though. If I use the 103 in an ensemble, I've got to have the main slide pulled out as far as it'll go and lip down a lot. I've tried adding a tuning bit, but that's awkward and doesn't really solve the issue.

Extending the leadpipe as Curmudgeon describes, or getting an extension for your tuning slide might solve your problem. Extending the leadpipe might be more beneficial and less cumbersome because it won't take as much pipe to get the right length, plus the tuning slide extension might male the horn awkward to hold.

This is a three part question: (1) Why do smaller tubas (Yamaha BB103, for example) tend to play sharp in the lower register? (2) Would a particular mouthpiece correct the problem? (3) Would a slightly longer (and/or wider) leadpipe correct the problem? Thanks.

But it seems as though the OP is fine throughout the horn and only has a problem with the lower range (yes, I am making am assumption and I know what assuming does to both you and me ). If it's just the low register, and everything else is fine, I wouldn't extend the horn at the leadpipe.

And, as Tuba Tinker stated, all horns will probably be a little off in the open partials just because of the physics of the horn (horns are designed with the focus on the 1st patrial and not the others).

[Dan Schultz]

Doesn't seem to me that this is something confined to just smaller tubas. Most every tuba I've ever owned required somewhat of a compromise between the low register and in the staff... at least as far as the open partials are concerned. On a BBb tuba... if I tune the Bb in the staff, the BBb below the staff is almost always sharp.

My problem seems to lie all across the range though. If I use the 103 in an ensemble, I've got to have the main slide pulled out as far as it'll go and lip down a lot. I've tried adding a tuning bit, but that's awkward and doesn't really solve the issue.

Schleppie... I probably own the only four-valved YBB-103 in The Universe. The fourth valve really isn't much of a help in the low register but cleans up many of the notes involving valve combinations. Try a larger mouthpiece. Your low range might be better in tune but your high range may go a bit flat. I've always found it easier to 'lip up' than down.

Also... I have two main tuning slides with one on top... which makes for really easy pitch changes.

[thevillagetuba]

Schleppie... I probably own the only four-valved YBB-103 in The Universe. The fourth valve really isn't much of a help in the low register but cleans up many of the notes involving valve combinations. Try a larger mouthpiece. Your low range might be better in tune but your high range may go a bit flat. I've always found it easier to 'lip up' than down.

Also... I have two main tuning slides with one on top... which makes for really easy pitch changes.

I saw that horn the other day and it was masterfully done. As was labelled, it is how Yamaha should have made it. And if they did, I would have seriously considered one for use when teaching (Would be a lot better than toting my big horns to teach beginners).

[Stephen Shoop]

Thanks for the fabulous responses so far. What mouthpieces are a particularly good match for small tubas like the Yamaha 103?

[thevillagetuba]

Thanks for the fabulous responses so far. What mouthpieces are a particularly good match for small tubas like the Yamaha 103?

I am a big fan of oversized pieces in general, but especially on smaller horns. I use the old style LM4 from Loud (the largest they made) but anything that is a deeper funnel/bowl should work well. I used to have a Jupiter 780 (3/4 4 rotors) and my LM4 really opened up its sound.

However, they don't make that piece anymore, so I'd recommend finding a buddy or a shop with a few options and gicing them a test run.

[swillafew]

My problem seems to lie all across the range though

(sharp)

When this happens to me (never flat for some reason) I get my mouthpiece off the horn and blow while I play notes on a keyboard with the other hand. When the buzz matches a reference pitch I can "reboot" and move on. Warmups with a recording are the best preventative measure I have found.

[Dan Schultz]

Thanks for the fabulous responses so far. What mouthpieces are a particularly good match for small tubas like the Yamaha 103?

Stephen... I use the same MP I use the rest of my horns... a Mike Finn 3B. Big MP, I know. But... it suits my chops.

[Jose the tuba player]

.

[Stephen Shoop]

Does anyone have experience with the Yamaha "stock" mouthpiece that came with that tuba (Yamaha BB103)? I am wondering if the mouthpiece and tuba were a good match.

[TubaZac2012]

This is interesting that you're having trouble with the low end on small horns, because whenever I still owned an F tuba even though it was a "6/4" F I still played sharp on the horn pretty much throughout. In fact I play relatively sharp on pretty much all instruments I play. I had a thread typed out before I read yours so I guess I'll just pose the question for myself here and save myself the hassle.

I've heard from friends that have done music in school more than I did to fix tuning problems is to work with a drone everyday for about 10-30 minutes throughout the ranges of the horn that you're going to be using. That is supposed to get your pitch center down. Is that true or not? I don't know, I am working on that, but not every time I put the horn to my face, because it is very tedious.

I've also been told I use way too much air whenever I play, and I over blow even the largest of horns like my York for example. Which is what you're most likely doing with the peashooter. A way I've been working on that is to not slow the air down, but to use it at a more gradual pace which is nice because I don't have to breath nearly as much. I use long tones, then scales, and then whatever I'm working on to work on a nice even breath, but not too much air.

Speaking of mouthpieces. Those Yamahas are GREAT little horns. I mean I love them. I have a buddy in the Shoals Community Band that plays one regularly. Anyways, he uses a very large mouthpiece. He uses a PT-83 I believe almost an 88 which is one of the largest mouthpieces you can buy that's a bowl, and I've used an 88 on the Yamahas and it really fits nicely. If you're playing on a small horn I firmly believe in using a larger mouthpiece, because that could be a lot of your tuning problems as well. Monty uses the PT and sounds great on it!

Hope this helped, and wish I could help more with the tuning aspect!

Best,
Zac

[hduong]

When I played on a 103 a few years ago, the Hammond 30XL worked well for me

[iiipopes]

Thanks for the fabulous responses so far. What mouthpieces are a particularly good match for small tubas like the Yamaha 103?

For all small-bore tubas, I like a little bit deeper funnel to help promote the fundamental, like a Conn Helleberg 120S or similar facsimile, or something like a Schilke 67 or SHII, etc. Neither the cup diameter or the throat need to be anything large.

[Stephen Shoop]

Thanks Curmudgeon and Bloke. All this is very good information.

[PaulMaybery]

Think about this and see if it what is going on. Sometimes it is not so much the horn as it is the chops. On a couple of other threads, the issue of "Up stream" vs "Down stream" embouchure has been discussed. Doug Elliot has contributed some very valuable insight on this. I'm very appreciative of his willingness to share his expertise.

I'm assuming that the readers here understand the concept of "up stream" "down stream"

Many of us, myself included, used the "down stream" for most mid to upper range playing and then would shift to "Up stream" for the low register. For me the shift automatically occurred around F or E just below the staff. Something in my early training told me I needed to do this. I think I simply did not have the confidence that continuing the "down stream " could produce a big sound down low. The result of making that shift was that I played my low register a bit flat in comparison to the octave above.

Somewhat later (with the aid of a clear mp) I was able to detect that shift and decided to work at keeping the embouchure direction the same as I approached the low range. For me the kicker was to push the lower jaw out, without changing the musculature or direction of the blow. However, (and here's the problem) if I would 'lower' the jaw instead of 'pushing it out', then I played flat. There can be a big difference between 'lowering' the jaw and 'pushing out' the lower lips. Not sure why, but there seems to be.

I found by continuing the DS as I descended, my upper and lower octaves lined up nicely in tune. And by incorporating some of Chris Olkas drills, I was able to get an enormous low end, that was also pleasantly in tune.

Well, this worked for me, and as we say so often, we're all different. I hope this might be helpful to someone.

The embouchure is rather mysterious. It is often very difficult to detect what is actually going on both in the MP and physiologically in the musculature and nervous system. For me it is a kick to fine tune my playing. It is then a delight to make music and be able to express my ideas.


Edit: After rereading the OP the issue is sharpness (not just intonation) in the low register. I do believe the same issue may be somewhat involved. In which case the opposite jaw movement might offer some correction.