Heavy modifications to a Conn 25J

[tylerferris1213]

I am in the very VERY early stages of thinking about doing some work to my Conn 25J. I love the sound and I love the dexterity of having the short-throw valves. It's a fantastic wind ensemble/brass band horn. What I really need is an orchestral CC tuba.

I already own a fantastic F tuba. It is the PT-10 that belonged to Mike Thornton. I also have a great 4/4 CC horn for small ensembles and brass quintets. As a performance major, I am still in need of a 6/4 to use in orchestra. I'm currently principal tubist for the university orchestra, and I'm on the sub list for the Cleveland Philharmonic Orchestra. I've been using the school's PT-5, but I'd really like to have my own horn that I can use for the rest of my life.

I know a good 6/4 is usually very pricey. What I'm considering is converting my 25J to a front-action 5 valve CC tuba. My question for you guys is if anyone out there has done any of these modifications. Are there any good places to make a cut to CC? How much time goes in to disassembling a horn and making it a front-action horn? Adding a 5th valve should be the easiest part of the conversion, but I'll still take anyone's advice who has already done it. Again, this is very tentative. I want to know if this is a viable option.

[bort]

First thought -- I think Norm Eppley (sp?) has done some Conn-based conversions before. Maybe give him a call and chat about it?

[tylerferris1213]

What is the most reliable way to get ahold of him?

[Michael Bush]

What is the most reliable way to get ahold of him?

IM on Facebook works very well. But he may have already seen this thread. He doesn't post much, but he seems to know what is being discussed on here from time to time.

Here is a 20J he has converted to side action, leaving it in BBb, I believe.

10455288_1073497532676606_3155174635544341183_n.jpg

[Timswisstuba]

Don't expect the intonation in CC to be better than the 25J.

[The Big Ben]

Here's is a thread from a while ago here on TubeNet which covers the topic:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17253" target="_blank" target="_blank

This will also get you a wide range of posts and threads here on TubeNet on the topic:

As search item in Google:

site:forums.chisham.com 20J conversion to CC

[tylerferris1213]

Thanks for the replies! In doing more research, it seems like more and more people are using 6/4 BBb tubas in orchestras, so it may be enough to convert it to a front action and add a 5th valve. As much as I would want it in CC as well, I don't want to cut it unless I can figure out how to do it without affecting intonation.

[Bob Kolada]

A younger guy on here (TubaTom?) flipped his to a front action Bb. I believe he had quite a few pictures of the process.

[pjv]

Sorry, I don't get it.

Why would spending a lot of money (like...a lot!) to flip the valves around (with the risk that you might mess up your tuba) suddenly transform a 25J into an orchestra tuba?

Why isn't a 25J an orchestra tuba right now?
You said you like the sound and the response. Can you work the intonation? Problem solved.

You are at the start of your career. Your taste in tubas will most probably change the more you get a hands-on idea about what you need to do the job and what suits you best.

Save the dough and invest it where it's needed. Giving an old tuba a nose job is a gamble. Sure it could pan out and be the tuba of your dreams. It could also be a very expensive (un-sellable) problem child.

Seeing as this is your ONLY 6/4 tuba, you might consider leaving it the way it is, (maybe adding a slide trigger to ease up some intonation quirks).

And while I'm at it; Conn 6/4 tuba's. I've owned a lot and never found one that didn't have that "just-a-bit-too-flat" 3rd partial. Some cats can muscle that out. Others can workout alternate fingerings without this affecting the cleanliness of their intonation. And yet others claim theirs just doesn't have this problem.

I'm not one of them. Love the sound. Hate the intonation.

Good luck.

[PaulMaybery]

I prefer front action myself as pull/pushing slides is something that usually needs to be done here and there.
On BBb I find the 3rd slide needs to go in and out for 2&3 (Gb & Db), and also the 1st for the Ab/C/Eb in the staff.
The same respective situation on CC tuba. I had an old CC King rotary for about 40 years and always had to play the 3rd partial (G) 1 & 3. Even with a kicker on the main slide, I could not get it high enough. This is the solution that even Bill Bell used. On a BBb I would like the 5th valve, if there would be one, to be 2 whole steps and the alternative to 2 & 3.

For me, LH slide adjustment is especially critical in orchestral playing where you are the only tuba and tuning chords with the trombones is sometimes rather tricky, while trying to maintain that "fabulous" clear and centered sound.
So sure, why not convert to front action if you can find someone to do it for you economically enough. I bought my own tools and have done my own conversions, but the tools were around 3K and I still don't have all that I need to do a 1st class job. So there is really no cheap way to get around it.

But I do agree with the poster who mentioned to just leave the horn in BBb and get used to the fingerings. Besides most (or at least much) of what we do is band music and if you are doing a lot of circus music/marches and warhorses, the BBb fingers are so much more idiomatic for that type of music. I refer again to Bill Bell, who when he played with bands used a BBb (often his Martin recording bass)

Many, many years ago, I made the mistake once and brought a CC to play my first rodeo. Never again.
Circus galops at 200 to 240 are a drag on a CC when they are in 5 or 6 flats. (Too clumsy and way to much work)

BTW - that photo above shows that someone put a lot of though, imagination, and great engineering to get all those slides in place. Hopefully it will sound great.
My hat is off.

[Art Hovey]

I do remember reading about someone here who claimed he had cut a 2XJ to CC, but I find it hard to believe; there is virtually no cylindrical tubing to remove from that bugle. A really short bell might get you almost to BB, but not CC. But I am all in favor of flipping such instruments to front-action. Here's one that I did last fall:

http://galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/20J/20Jconversion.html

It did not need a 5th valve, and did not require much muscle to play in tune.
A 20" upright bell would have been nice, but I couldn't afford one. I made some inquiries about obtaining such a bell from China, but was told that the shipping cost would be out of sight.

[The Big Ben]

A 20" upright bell would have been nice, but I couldn't afford one. I made some inquiries about obtaining such a bell from China, but was told that the shipping cost would be out of sight.

I wonder if Wessex or Mack could have JinBao put a dozen or so replacement bells of some type in the container and offer them at a more reasonable price? They sell Miraclones, Kingclones and Hirschbruclones so that covers most of the possibilities.

[PaulMaybery]

I believe Kanstul produces replacement upright bells for Yorks, Conns, the larger King, etc. Not sure though if they do a 'full stack' or just to the tenon joint. If Lee Stofer would chime in here, I think he could shed much more light on the subject.

Mike at M&M might also have insight into the Chinese import situation. I recall speaking with him several years ago about a 186 clone replacement for a project horn. Dan the Village Tinker was also in on that loop and was kind enough to send me one from his stash to try. It was a fine bell, just not the right size for my needs.

And if Tom at Mack is reading, do you care those 'larger' replacement parts - that is bells?

[tylerferris1213]

To the person who asked why I felt I needed it to be a front action horn for it to be used in orchestra, I don't want to get dirty looks every time I bring it in and the bell is facing the rest of the orchestra. Also, the rest of the guys are right. Along with it looking more the part of an orchestral tuba, I would have slide-pulling options for troublesome notes. The kicker is that my teacher is a fantastic instrument technician, and he is more than capable of doing a project like this. He is busier than ever right now, though. I'm getting opinions from Tubenet so I can approach my teacher with an idea AND A PLAN.

[TubaZac2012]

From what it seems like to me you have a couple options.

Option one: You can go through with the process of cutting a BBb to CC and if you give it to someone that knows what they're doing it will be a great horn no doubt about it, but it's not going to be cheap if it's done right.

Option two: You can keep playing what you've got and just sit on the cash for awhile, and save up for a 6/4 tuba everyone else has, but keeping the BBb which you'll still be able to use.

Both are great options, but I like one more than the other, but I'm also not going to try and influence you either. Conn's are GREAT tubas. I've never played one on a regular basis, but if I hadn't bought this York I bought a Conn was probably my next thought, because they're massive, have a magical sound, and they're a joy to play.

Good luck,
Zac

[The Big Ben]

Option one: You can go through with the process of cutting a BBb to CC and if you give it to someone that knows what they're doing it will be a great horn no doubt about it, but it's not going to be cheap if it's done right.

Read through the link I posted below. For lots of reasons (mainly that there are few non-conical runs of tubing), the Conn 2xJs are not really good candidates for cutting. Sam Gnagey was commissioned to cut one and, no matter how he used his magic on it, it was just OK.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17253&start=12" target="_blank" target="_blank

[TubaZac2012]

Option one: You can go through with the process of cutting a BBb to CC and if you give it to someone that knows what they're doing it will be a great horn no doubt about it, but it's not going to be cheap if it's done right.

Read through the link I posted below. For lots of reasons (mainly that there are few non-conical runs of tubing), the Conn 2xJs are not really good candidates for cutting. Sam Gnagey was commissioned to cut one and, no matter how he used his magic on it, it was just OK.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17253&start=12" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Thanks for the link. I didn't read that section of the thread.

[tylerferris1213]

Based on the feedback so far, I will probably opt to keep it in BBb. I'd still like it to be a front valve instrument with 5 valves, though. With the right technician, both of these could be done without affecting the original sound of the instrument.

[The Big Ben]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26292" target="_blank

Here it is. This guy cut a 20J to CC.

Ah. Now I remember seeing and commenting on this one. It did come out pretty well but the OP didn't mention anything about the tuning. Couple of more experienced hands also mentioned how fraught with hazard such an exercise might be.

[tylerferris1213]

After reading other threads, I'll definitely NOT be cutting it to CC, unless I find something that proves it can be done.