Play testing tubas

[apsapienza]

Good afternoon tubenetters

I'm on the hunt for a new CC tuba. I had this dreamland fantasy to go out to a major tuba shop and play-test a set of horns. Looking at a MRP CC or a PT-6 rotor for my top prospects currently. I've spoken with two places, one of which has only one of each model, and the other has six and 2 respectively, but will only allow me to play-test two MRPs. To me this defeats the purpose of driving/flying spending a few hundred dollars to pick one from two.

I guess my question is, "is there something I'm missing in the process of play-testing horns? or did I miss the good-ol' days when what I described above was actually what people did?"

Has anyone done this before?

Thanks!

[thevillagetuba]

I think you are right on both parts. It is true that no two horns play exactly the same, but you would be wasting your time to try out a lot of the same model. In my opinion, it's best to get a quality horn, which both of those are, and then learn to play that horn with its tendencies. I have played many horns over the years (though not as many as a lot of others on here) and none of the horns I have owned have played the same on day one as after one month and one year. You will know from playing a horn if it has a major problem right away. But, the odds that you would get one with a serious problem are pretty low (and you could always return/exchange the horn, I'm sure).

Below is an article by Richard Barth (of BMB) about testing tubas, and I completely agree (and it is a pretty good read). No horn will really be 100%, so you might as well get one, learn it, and then make any modifications necessary for it to be as close to perfect for you as it can be.

http://bigmouthbrass.com/bmb1/blog/test ... erspective" target="_blank

[apsapienza]

Thank you for the advice, I'm pretty sure that how I'm moving forward.

[thevillagetuba]

You're welcome. I know that it is a piston horn, but I would check out the Wisemann 900 sold by MackBrass. I was a recommended, and will be buying that horn, over the PT6 because it is a bit more constant with intonation and his getting high reviews in comparison to the B&S (of which the Wisemann is a clone).

Not to mention, the Wisemann is about half the cost. If you can get your hands on one (which is difficult because they are only sold in VA at MackBrass and in Baltimore at BBC, not to mention there is often a wait list for each shipment) it would be worth it to try out.

Best of luck with you search and acquisition.

[bort]

Beware of "analysis paralysis" -- although there are merits to trying 6 of the same horn side-by-side (the "pick of the litter" effect), I question how much difference that actually makes to 90% of people (although, maybe you are in that 10%!).

If you try 6 of the same horn, and one is your favorite... how much "worse" is the 2nd place, 3rd place, etc. tuba? Yes, maybe the last place tuba is clearly in last, but I'd imagine that most of the others will be fairly consistent in most cases. That is, if your first place tuba never existed, would you have been happy with the 2nd or 3rd place one?

Another consideration, it seems like even for high-quality horns, minor adjustments can be needed to bring it up to its optimal playing condition (particularly aligning valves and slides). We all think things will be 100% perfect because it is new... but if it doesn't play as expected, is it because it's a "dud" for some mysterious reason? More likely there is some sort of defect, highly likely to be fixable, that will make the tuba live up to its potential.

[Tom]

It is true that no two horns play exactly the same, but you would be wasting your time to try out a lot of the same model.

I disagree.

If one has the opportunity (or creates the opportunity) to try multiple examples of the same model, well...why not do it? There is no harm in trying as many of the same model as you can and selecting your favorite from that group. The difference between examples may be real or it may be imagined but I don't think that the act of trying multiple examples is an automatic waste of time or a direct pathway analysis paralysis.

And...sometimes there ARE really radical differences between examples. Of course without trying more than one you would never know...

[thevillagetuba]

It is true that no two horns play exactly the same, but you would be wasting your time to try out a lot of the same model.

I disagree.

If one has the opportunity (or creates the opportunity) to try multiple examples of the same model, well...why not do it? There is no harm in trying as many of the same model as you can and selecting your favorite from that group. The difference between examples may be real or it may be imagined but I don't think that the act of trying multiple examples is an automatic waste of time or a direct pathway analysis paralysis.

And...sometimes there ARE really radical differences between examples. Of course without trying more than one you would never know...

I absolutely agree with that. But, with the OP mentioning a few hundred dollars to play test them, it didn't seem worth the expense. In my experience test playing any more than two or three I start to really get a blur as to which one plays which way. Though, that could just be me! If it's easy to get your hands on a few, go for it. If you have to spend some serious dough (which a few hundred dollars could be for a lot of us), then it might not be worth it.

[bort]

Question -- suppose you try 6 examples of the same tuba. 5 of them are duds, or just don't do it for you. The other 1 is great, and you love it. Would you buy it? I'm not sure that I would.

[Tom]

Question -- suppose you try 6 examples of the same tuba. 5 of them are duds, or just don't do it for you. The other 1 is great, and you love it. Would you buy it? I'm not sure that I would.

Interesting scenario. I think that for me the answer to your question would be "yes, I would buy #6" provided that it was, like you said, really great and I loved it. Could make for tough resale though if the model had developed a reputation for being inconsistent or typically "bad."

[apsapienza]

Some context - I'm in Colorado and was looking at NYC (Buffet's showroom) and Milwaukee (Casio music). NYC only has one MRP and one PT6. Casio does have 6, but they're telling me I can only play-test the two at the retail store, and that "no customers are allowed at the warehouse", where the other four are. Buffet Group in Jacksonville says Casio has the most samples right now of anyone, including the Jacksonville warehouse, so I'd be putting out $400 in flight tickets to pick one out of two. Not to mention the costs of hauling it back. Driving would be about the same price with my car and including hotel stays, etc.

VillageTuba, I sold my PT-6P because of the valve problems I was having, so I'm a little gun shy to say the least, going with another piston horn currently. Might dig into it though...

Bort, I was looking to do a "best-of-the-litter" scenario, but that seems farfetched in the current marketplace. Your advice makes sense to me, and I'm probably planning a trip later this summer to someone who can do some mods on both my horns.

[bort]

Question -- can you buy tubas at the NYC Buffet showroom? For some reason, I thought it was *just* for show, and nothing for sale. I could easily be wrong.

If you're in NY, then Dillon Music is a 30-minute train ride away. Not sure what sort of multiples they might have on-hand, but on a random day last year, they had a PT6, Thor, and Tuono (plus all the used stuff). Baltimore Brass is about 3.5 hours away, but also a worthwhile side trip since you're usually in Colorado.

Question -- what sort of stock of new tubas does Horn Guys have out in CA? It's a closer option, if they've got what you're looking for!

Good luck!

[apsapienza]

I'd have to buy through a dealer with the NYC showroom. Dealer buys the horn from the showroom, I pay the dealer. Looking to work with Baltimore.

Horn Guys do not sell Buffet products, so it's Miraphone, Alexander, Gronitz, and Hirsbrunner, the latter three are special order only, and have a starting price range above my ideal budget.

Might consider an east coast tour, but it's becoming clear that it's a lot more cost-effective to do what you recommended earlier. I could pump the money I spent on housing/gas/food during a roadtrip into getting the horn to it's highest potential.

[bort]

Well then... you, sir, have done your homework!

Good luck, let us know how it all goes!

[apsapienza]

A little too quick after posting this thread

Thanks for your help!

[eupher61]

Any place that won't let me try out everything they have in stock in the facility won't get my business for a major purchase. I bought a couple of Schillers sight unseen, and was lucky.
But, putting out money for a "top quality" tuba without being allowed to play test it? Sorry. That includes the big dealer in South Bend. I refuse to do it that way.

[Ferguson]

Horn Guys do not sell Buffet products, so it's Miraphone, Alexander, Gronitz, and Hirsbrunner, the latter three are special order only, and have a starting price range above my ideal budget.

Partially right. Buffet USA's service does not meet my standards, but that's a topic for another thread. We have Miraphone, Gronitz, and Alexander tubas in stock now. I hope to stock more Hirsbrunners, but I keep spending the money we need for a deposit on other things. Soon...

Also, a new Alexander 163 is less expensive than the MRP listed at Cascio Music, not more. The new Alex tubas are more similar to a PT6 than the Alex's of yesteryear. In typical Alex fashion they are much lighter than B&S tubas. Current Alex tubas are a different animal from their oldies, and all the new 163s have been very good. Tom McGrady bought one and told me about how the design is nothing like the old models.

Regarding testing tubas...the reason Cascio won't let you try all of them is that many mail/internet buyers want their merchandise to be factory fresh. As soon as the tuba is unpacked, handled, and played, it's no longer considered to be factory fresh. Thomann and Guitar Center have similar policies.

Why don't you see multiples of the same model in stock at many places? The market for German and other high-end tubas is pretty small. Nearly all dealers are pre-paying for these things, so they have to budget accordingly. Also, any healthy retail operation needs to turn their inventory several times a year to make it all worthwhile to stay in business. Example: If a store sells a pricey tuba per week, about 50 a year, then maybe the proper number to have in stock is about 12-17 tubas. So the selection might include a couple of student models, and 3 BBb, 6 CC, and 4 F pro models, there's 15 right there. Miraphone has 4 new(ish) models of F tubas, plus options available on those (5/6V, 5+1/4+2, silver/lacquer, yellow/gold) add to more than 20 combinations. There just might not bet space or budget to have many more in the showroom, certainly not many duplicates if you're trying to cover a few of the options available. Like Cascio, we ship most everything out. Even in Los Angeles, the local market is not large enough to stock multitudes of many instruments.

When I opened this business in 2000 (silly me), I was concerned about not having multiples of the same instruments for clients to try and compare. ("If you want a Bach trombone, you need to play 6 of the same model and pick the best.") What I have found (and it's easier with tenor trombones which are all about the same size), is that if we put out 3 different model Bachs, a few Shires, some Conns, a couple of Yamahas, a Getzen and whatever, a player can try a dozen different horns with similar specs, maybe half of them in the right price range, and if they're ready to leap, they'll probably pick the best one of that group for the day. It's possible it may not be the absolute Bachiest Bach that ever Bached, but if it's better and more inspiring than the rest of the bunch, that's the horn that will get chosen.

In the same vein, if someone is hot for a 4/4 CC tuba and we have 6 different models of 4/4 CC tubas here, someone might just pick the best that day that fits their budget and they go home happy. The standard for manufacturing professional instruments are very high these days. With a few exceptions, most makers don't really have duds. Yes, try several if you can, try everything, and you might be surprised by what inspires you.

Ferguson
/Horn Guys

[apsapienza]

^^ I stand corrected. Thank you for your clarifications, I apologize for my misrepresentations in my previous statement.

[swillafew]

Play testing is a worthy effort. I bought my last two horns from knowledgable players and they were prescreened in this way. If I needed another horn I would do it again. Good luck.

[TubaSailor]

Ferguson's Horn Guys is the place to go on the West Coast - one of the issues to the dealer in allowing test playing, is the inevitable, inadvertent damage that their brand-new instruments will suffer. Steve is very, very careful in how the horns are handled, yet if you check the Daily Menu on his site there's a Gronitz PCK marked down for a small (probably insignificantly small) bump. That's a $1,000 loss to Horn Guys for letting someone test play. I was lucky enough to get to play several horns there 6 months or so ago, and would have gone home with a HB-2p, except it was a bit out of my price range. Steve was almost apologetic in requiring scratch protection, etc., but if you were buying a $$,$$$ instrument wouldn't you hope that the dealer would take that kind of care with it for you? The point is that there is a substantial risk to the seller to allow test playing, and while we may consider it a cost of doing business, that risk still needs to be controlled. Let's not make it harder on the few dealers that are still willing to put tens of thousands of dollars worth of their stock in the hands of someone they don't know, and help us learn which instruments work best for us. Otherwise, we may finish up without that opportunity.

[Watchman]

buyers want their merchandise to be factory fresh. As soon as the tuba is unpacked, handled, and played, it's no longer considered to be factory fresh.

As someone who worked in music retail for many years, this can be the bane of your existence. Not just mail/internet buyers, but I can't tell you how many times I worked with a customer on an instrument for hours, or days, or however long, and then after they FINALLY made the decision to buy I hear:

Customer: "So...you got one in the box?"
Me: "Umm...no. I keep it out so that you can play test it to make sure you like it."
Customer: "Oh ok....in that case, can I get a discount since it's a demo model?"
Me: <Slams head repeatedly on desk>

It would be really nice if stores just had a mountain of gear boxed up that played just like the demo for everybody who wanted a fresh one, but that is just not economically possible in many cases.

*Edit* Advice to the OP: If you can hold out for a year, go to ITEC or the DC army conference. You'll never get to play so many tubas in one place.