Bombardon as an ophecleide substitute

[PaulMaybery]

On a recent pops concert I was using the cimbasso in some C&W and Bluegrass arrangements, backing up Jay Ungar and Molly Mason. There were times when I was playing along with the bassoons, and what a similarity of timbre, especially below the staff. I would love to have time to build or have someone build for me what used to be called a 'bombardon' - basically an ophecliede with valves. I would like it in F and if were more or less the same bore etc as the cimbasso, albeit in upright fashion - that would be fine. Basically a bass trombone or alto or Bb tenor horn bell, a valve circuit from an F tuba, a nice narrow bottom bow such as on an old tenor or alto horn, and a lot of cylindrical tubing.

Such an animal would work well on the ophecliede part on Midsommer and of course any of the Berlioz pieces. (Two of them on "Sym. Fantastique") Also Mendelssohn "Elijah" and on the contra bassoon part in the "Reformation" symphony.

A non-metalic mouthpiece would be fun as well. (Wood, Ivory or bone, Delrin)

I think I saw a similar instrument that J.C. built. Was it a 3 valve bass trombone in upright form?

I bet one of those mini-f-practice tubas - could be reconfigured.

[tylerferris1213]

Yes, you're right. J.c. built a couple upright cimbassos. I believe they were pitched in Eb, but I could be wrong.

[Bob Kolada]

Buy mine!

[eupho]

Has anyone used a large bore(dark timbred) euphonium on Ophicleid parts rather than an F tuba? i.e Brahms Requiem. I have even played the Brahms on a smaller BBb quite successfully.

[PaulMaybery]

images-2.jpg

This is sort of what I was envisioning - albeit in F with 5 valves. I think I have parts for the 'bugle' in the garage, but could use a rotary valve section from a donor tuba.

[David Richoux]

This topic has been brought up before on Tubenet. There is a German semi-custom brass maker that might have what you are looking for.

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More info (a bit, and in German) here. http://www.musikhaus-syhre.de/html/body_ophikleide.html the photos in the link seem to be larger horns - more info is needed.

[PaulMaybery]

Thanks for that post. That is indeed a great looking instrument. I am familiar with this configuration and it is not quite what I am looking for. The bell is several feet above the players head and the taper gets somewhat large, more like a medium small F tuba in what looks like the old (Civil War era) OTS configuration with an adapted concert lead pipe. The one I did play sounded much like a tuba. Though it is quite a beautiful instrument.

Timbre wise I'm looking for a sound that is somewhere between a bass trombone/cimbasso and a euphonium. In all likelihood it should take a bass bone mouthpiece to accommodate the register above middle C without a lot of strain when ascending to the G above. The travel tuba is the closest thing that I have seen being produced these days that gets that tight sound. And I just might tear into one of those. I would like to try the Eb upright valve bass bone that J.C. put together.

[tylerferris1213]

J.c. is my teacher. I could ask him if he has the parts to build another one if you'd like.

[hubert]

Could the Bohland & Fuchs Kaiserbaryton on http://www.tubashop.de perhaps be interesting in this context as well? Look at the bore size!!! Should have a very dark voice, I suppose.
Hubert

[PaulMaybery]

Hi Tyler, Thanks.
I'll need to talk with J.C. about this. I'm sure he has a great deal of insight into this both as a player and craftsman. Since I do have my own little shop, I'd like to tackle this myself, but it would eliminate a lot of unnecessary trial and error, not to mention hair pulling, if I first get some good advice from someone in the know.

[DouglasJB]

A Cerveny rotary euphonium might give you a good start, extend the bell and slides to bring pitch to F.

[latuba]

There were times when I was playing along with the bassoons, and what a similarity of timbre, especially below the staff. I would love to have time to build or have someone build for me what used to be called a 'bombardon' - basically an ophecliede with valves. I would like it in F and if were more or less the same bore etc as the cimbasso, albeit in upright fashion - that would be fine.

Hello Paul, maybe you will reconsider the Syhre Valve Ophicleide if I told you, that it has been developed to fit exactly this requirements you asked for? It has been developed on the basis of an original 1850's horn from the collection of the University of Leipzig, Germany. The original was made by an anonymous maker from southern Germany, Austria or Italy around 1850 and should therefore be considered as an absolutely suitable instrument also for the original idea of the Italian Bombardons (and therefore even for "Cimbasso" parts until 1880 - check out the Bevan abstract). Austrian Valve Ophicleides and Italian Bombardons were mostly identical at this time, more differing in their regional naming traditions than in the actual sound character and bore/taper sizes.
Mr Syhre was a specialist for redeveloping historic instruments, now the workshop has been taken over by his last apprentice, Mr Takao Nakagawa. The instruments still have the same quality as he is allowed to use Syhre's original patterns and shapes.
This Ophicleide is tuned in F (@443Hz), however there are various tuning slides available (440…435…415Hz…Eb) on request. The normal configuration are 5 valves (4+1 or 5) plus a main slide trigger, detachable bell on request. The timbre is strongly changing with the used mouthpiece, ranging from a slim tuba sound, over that earthy and dark bassoon-timbre and even to cimbasso-ish brassy in the low register if you chose the right mouthpiece. I played part of my masters concert and also some gigs with German professional orchestras on this horn - it just works!

[Wyvern]

Paul, Wessex will have out exactly what you are looking for later this year. More details later...

[Bob Kolada]

Buy mine!

How much is yours Bob?

$1500. I've got more pics if anyone's interested.

[PaulMaybery]

Jonathan.

Very much interested. I already have your Wessex F Cimbasso in silver, and it is a fabulous instrument. It charms everyone who hears it and I've actually been using it quite a bit.

Will patiently wait for news on your instrument. Any hints on key and configuration will be welcomed.

Thanks for the news.

Paul

[PaulMaybery]

To Bob
Would be interested in seeing pics if you don't mind.
I'm trying to gather as much information as I can.
Many thanks in advance.
Paul

[PaulMaybery]

Hi Kiltie.
Good to know others have a similar interest in the old bombardon.
That bottom bow is the tricky part. In the old 19th-century aesthetic, it was often a pretty narrow bend. There is branch inside the old Conn Jumbo EEbs (just opposite the valve cluster) that I have been messing with. I'm not sure what I would like for a bore though. The cimbasso I already have is around .730 (roughly) and with the bass trombone size bell is very light and responsive and great intonation. I think the trick is to keep things pretty narrow for about the first 2/3ds. Actually the cimbasso bell is not that different from some of the old Conn Eb upright altos. Problem with the saxophone bow is that it has a tone hole smack in the middle of things, besides even with an alto I think it would be too wide. The other comparison between the bombardons and the ophicleides is that the bombardons I have seen are more trombone-like, whereas the ophicleides tend to be much more conical all the way through the horn. Unfortunately I have not been able to play any of those museum bombardons, but have had my chops on quite a few ophicleides. Part of what I would like is a horn that will play the upper range (middle C up to G) with the ease of a euphonium, a little huskier though, and still have a good bottom. For me, F is my preferred key. The lead pipe and mouthpiece receiver I believe would be a critical section of the instrument. And does one approach it like a bass trombone with a similar size mp or from the perspective of a tuba with something like an F solo mp. I could see a bocal type lead pipe (fashioned like a removable sousaphone neck). Two would be nice, one for a tuba mp the other for a bass trombone/euph mp. I have an antique trombone mp that has a hug shank and cup and fits a standard American shank receiver. (It makes Bydlo on the F tuba a piece of cake.) The shank is also long enough that it fits into the large shank euphonium and gives it more of a tuba sound. Problem my euph does not have enough push on the tuning slide to bring the pitch back up to 440.
Somehow I would try building the bombardon from with that particular MP in mind.

[Wyvern]

Any hints on key and configuration will be welcomed.

I will let you know that it uses ophicleide bell and bows without the tone holes. We are calling it a valved-ophicleide (although you could call it bombardon). It is inspired by original 19th century design. It is basically the missing link between the ophicleide and the tuba. Tonally with the mouthpiece we are supplying it sounds near ophicleide without the complicated fingerings and intonation problems.

Tony George who has been advising Wessex on the design says it will be ideal for playing early Verdi, as well as Berlioz, or Mendelssohn with modern orchestra. I am sure it will also have many other uses (civil war bands, brass quintet, recital use, etc.) - and will be easy for tuba players to pick up and play without learning a new instrument (although hopefully they will still be able to claim doubling fees!).

Initially it will be in Eb, and we may follow with F version, depending on the response.

I am excited about Wessex bringing out a completely new horn to extend tuba players tonal palette.

[PaulMaybery]

Jonathan.
For orchestral players in the US - I would indeed encourage an F version. I do understand in the UK the Eb Tuba is pretty standard in the orchestras and that will likely be your initial market.

Very excited to hear about your plans.

Any chance they could be built with just interchangeable F/Eb slides like the "Bubbie" and the Cimbasso.

[latuba]

Well, google doesn't help. Nor does searching for Syhre as he retired.

Don't come around here dropping these kind of bombs without more information!!

Well, I think my post was long enough to bring at least some information And there is no need to worry about not finding Mr Syhre on google - he was an old man and did not put very much information on the web. But you can ask me anything you want about it and I will try to answer as far as my knowledge goes. BTW - If you guys are interested, I am planning to put a demo vid on youtube soon.