Serious question: Why C tuba over Bb?

[roweenie]

An idea just came to mind.

Maybe the "BBb" notation was conceived independently from the Helmholtz notation scheme .

Back in the old "saxhorn" days, it was common to call the small bore baritone a "Bb baritone" while what we call today "euphonium" would be called a "Bb bass". The convention of calling the tuba pitched an octave below the "Bb bass" a "BBb bass" was possibly, simply a way to differentiate between the two horns, merely "borrowing" the convention from Helmholtz, without actually ever meaning to use the label in its original, scientific meaning.

From the 1908 Sears Roebuck catalogue:



The "C tuba" then was called "CC tuba" to differentiate from the French "C bass" (which is in reality a "C euphonium"), just as Rick mentioned earlier in this post (and you thought I wasn't paying attention.... )

In retrospect, it would have been more correct to avoid "borrowing" terms without actually meaning it (this is where confusion occurs, and why choosing language correctly is critical), and to name the horns in question "C contrabass", or "Bb contrabass".

Unfortunately, I wasn't there at the time, and my time machine is currently not working....

[Donn]

The naming scheme clearly comes from / refers to the Helmholtz notation. (Anyone can see that, bloke only gets credit for having introduced that point in the conversation.) It is clearly in error when it puts the C and Bb contrabasses in the same octave. QED

Only one question: why does bloke "get credit" for pointing out an explanation that doesn't explain the accepted names?

Oh dear...one more - are you seriously suggesting that bloke is the first one to point out the Helmholtz connection? You must be a newbie here.

Good grief.

On Wednesday, March 15 at 12:14 (I suppose PST), "Watchman" posed the question in this thread ("the conversation"): why do we use TWO B's and C when we reference these instruments?

Bloke answered this question 7 minutes later, referencing Helmholtz notation. He therefore gets "credit" ("public acknowledgement", definition 3 in my dictionary) for introducing the connection between Helmholtz notation and this convention, into this conversation ("Why C tuba over Bb?".)

This explanation is clearly correct, it would be utterly bizarre to imagine that the doubled upper case letter convention arose independently among tuba players, and the post above that starts out apparently proposing that, goes on "... merely "borrowing" the convention from Helmholtz, ..." - so not really proposing any such thing.

The fact that it's conventionally used in error doesn't invalidate the etymology.

Do I need to go over the issue of bloke's very minimal involvement in this in any more detail? If I had known it was going to be like this, I would have found another way to refer to the Helmholtz explanation that appeared 8 or 9 posts above mine on the same page.

[roweenie]

Good grief, indeed.

My proposition was just a theory (hence using the term "idea" at the beginning of my post). It's only a theory, as none of us were there when the convention began, and the folks who started it can't be asked because they are long gone.

Donn, you are free to disagree with my theory (afterall, this IS a forum) but please don't put words in my mouth; furthermore, do me the courtesy of quoting my statements directly, rather than paraphrasing me. I never mentioned that the convention was started by tuba players. In fact, it was likely started by marketing people, because, if it were started by musicians, it would less likely have been botched. I think it's rather impertinent of us to assume that our musical forefathers would be so stupid as to make such a simple blunder. In point of fact, since oftentimes marketing people (who likely didn't know Helmholtz from Adam - seriously, how many musicians do, for that matter) "stretch" the truth to make sales (recall the Eb vs EEb debate), this adds credence to my theory. In added defense to my idea, the picture I posted proves that at one time, the euphonium was called a Bb bass. This *could* be evidence why the Bb contrabass was called a BBb bass.

There's no doubt that the convention is at least "Helmholtz inspired". I'm just trying to figure out "what went wrong, and why?".

[gwwilk]

Maybe Schleppie can make a 'stickie' out of this topic!

Why?

Indeed, why, when the discussion has wandered so far afield from the OP's query:

Since it seems German orchestras require Bb tuba with rotors why do American schools/orchestras lean toward C tubas? Also, who cares if one plays pistons versus rotors?

[eutubabone]

Sounds like it's time for a coffee break, break time.

[Frank Ortega]

Chiming in on this tired old debate.

I stopped playing CC just due to circumstance. Went through an embochure change and couldn't switch instruments for a while. And waiting for my Conn CC to have a new valve set installed for a a few years aided the decision.

IMHO a great BBb can play well in any setting, and in some cases, is the best choice for the job. I'm offering, for your perusal a recording from my latest Chelsea Symphony Concert. The TCSO is one of the best kept secrets in NYC, a really fine orchestra.
I've posted a recording of the Prokofiev Romeo and Juliette. Mvt 6 - Balcony Scene & 7 - Death of Tybalt. Hopefully I'll get around to the Montagues and Capulets today. This was recorded from my seat, on an I-phone 5S, so there's a preponderance of Tuba and Horn. Are the some burrs here and there? Sure. But I think the sound of a great BBb is singular in nature,
I'm playing this on my 1932 Martin Mammoth BBb. Enjoy!

VI. Balcony Scene and VII. Death of Tybalt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2PfK3u ... e=youtu.be" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I. The Montagues and the Capulets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLJY7uq ... e=youtu.be" target="_blank

[lowpitchmoravian]

C tubas are much more expensive, and if someone can spend a lot of money on just one tuba, that unburdens that person from having to figure out how to spend the otherwise leftover money.

I see.

So you get several feet less tuba, only for more money.

Like a Porsche!!

Absolutely...

Google "short bore bassoon" and "long bore bassoon". Compare their prices.

Same with a 1951 "Henry J"

[IsaacTuba]

Band music - mostly flat keys (I've seen passages that have tied many a CC player's fingers in knots, that were practically effortless on BBb)

I’ll have to agree with you, I recently got a CC tuba for my orchestra and when I tried to play it in my band, sight-reading in Eb major has never been more difficult. I made it through, but it would’ve been a piece of cake on BBb.

Despite that, my orchestral music becomes much easier now (most notably The Planets). So I guess you have to lose some to win some.

[Ken Herrick]

Yep.