Why the bias AGAINST CC tubas on TubeNet?

[jsmn4vu]

Anytime a youngster comes here and asks about CC tubas, the TNFJ jumps on them. They are shouted down as being extravagant, wasteful, etc., etc.

I would submit that the bias is not against C tubas per se, but against kids who think they MUST have one, for reasons that are at best half-baked.

[Donn]

Working freelancers, symphonie types, kolij 'fessors, etc. still use them. Many (most?, all?) kolij 'fessers still recommend them as the "base" contrabass instrument for their students.

Does the TNFJ really know better than these tuba professionals and learned scholars of the king of instruments?

To turn the question around, do those facts tell us that a C tuba delivers, it's really worth it because C is better - proven choice of teachers, symphony players and other pros?

Why did you misspell "college"?

Anyway ... the choice really comes up only past a certain point in one's development as a player, right? I mean, you don't see them in high school band. When someone has reached that point and is about to buy a high quality instrument - would Tubenet be the place to go with that choice? "Dear Tubenet, I am about to buy a tuba. C or Bb?" The correct answer is "ask your teacher (present and future)", am I right?

Could this be a case of "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer?" I am positive that's a Tubenet regular feature.

[Donn]

To turn the question around, do those facts tell us that a C tuba delivers, it's really worth it because C is better - proven choice of teachers, symphony players and other pros?

Not 100% sure I follow you, but should these fresh, new learners look to the TNFJ or to "teachers, symphony players and other pros" for information and example?

They should look to me. I can't account for the rest - TNFJ, teachers, whatever, they can say what they want, but if they don't agree with me, then evidently in my opinion they're wrong.

Why did you misspell "college"?

For our friend, bloke, of course!

Sure. As you probably surmised, I'm making a connection between this business of yokum-speak when referring to academia, and your question. You kind of acknowledge it by choosing to do that in your question, so it didn't take any stroke of genius insight, and I don't really expect there's much more to be said about it, but it's something to think about.

[PaulMaybery]

Oh Dear! I suppose being a CC jock I need to chime in. I grew up in the Philly area in the 1960s, studied with Abe in the Philly Orch. It "seemed" to me that virtually all of the serious players on the east coast played CC. So was I eventually seduced? I suppose so.
But I used the quotes on "seemed." I was in HS and eventually college during those years, and really good information was at a minimum. I remember Abe saying something to the effect, that if you come to me to study tuba, you will learn to it is the way I do. His attitude did change over the years. (for economic reasons I had a school mirafone BBb 186) He never let up on getting a CC. But what I did not know back then was there was a whole troup of great players who played BBb. Don Butterfield, Joe Tarto, even Harvey played BBb with the circus. Bell would play BBb and Eb when he did the Asbury Park Band in the Summer. For grad school I moved to the Midwest and now having some employment as the Grad Assistant bought a spanking new MW. What did I get? A CC Wm Bell Model just like Abe's. I was fortunate that after Grad School I got a ton of work in orchestras, recordings, chamber brass, pit orchestras so the CC was for that kind of work a pretty good fit. (on the dirty end of the same stick I was miserable trying to play circus marches/galops on the CC at breakneck tempos. What I would have given to have a BBb in my lap at that point) I even got sophisticated and purchased a MW F tuba. Now here is a bit of a confession. Being from the east coast, I had a somewhat elevated opinion of myself in comparison to my education and "east coast intensity." I felt that having that CC and the F was a mark of distinction and put me into a different league in my new home in the Mid West.

To back up a bit, when I was in grad school I sent out a survey to all the tubaist on the just new "TUBA." I was struggling with "Why" CC or BBb. Responses varied from the dogmatic to the practical. My conclusion from all of it was that a BBb was much better suited for band work and the CC for orchestra. I suppose I need to learn that. But for some reason and for me, there was always a stigma when it came to the BBb.

These days I am in my late 60s and still play with a lot of "piss and vinegar." What do I think now? I always keep questioning that I should have stayed on the BBb. But the CC did give me the appearance that I might have known more than the average "Mr. Ompah." So maybe it was snobbery.

Orchestral playing does to a great degree define tuba playing in this country. I'm not sure that is a totally good thing. Advanced degrees certainly provide for a special tuba education that is amazing. Though as I have been finding, major conservatories do not address the practical issues in playing in situations other than "classical" and at that the "elements of style" that are requisite for traditional band music for instanced are basically ignored.

So today, I still play the CC and the F, but have played Eb for 10 years with the Salvation Army and also use the BBb regularly when I am in an old traditional type of group or Dixie or a parade float.

For most instances these days, playing tuba is a "gentleman's hobby" I have about $30,000 invested in my good horns and "NEVER" plan to recover that in the "autumn of my playing" I play now because I love it, I do it very well, and I take pride in it.
It seems now that the CC/BBb issue got overblown in to a sophomoric rant. But I have had the time to learn and play the tubas in all keys, so they all are available to me "on call." I guess I'm lucky.

[windshieldbug]

I propose that it comes down to concept of sound, and what one wishes to do with their playing.
I think that for the longest time in the U.S., "serious" tuba players took a conservatory approach to teaching and wanted to imprint the brighter sound and fast response of a 5/4 C tuba in an American orchestral setting in their students.

Fact is that there are infinitely more opportunities to play in other groups, so what I hear the TNFJ saying is to tailor one's equipment and sound concept to suit one's own goals; There are vastly more trumpet jobs available yet I know many trumpet players who haven't picked up their C's in years...

[Jay Bertolet]

Where to start?

I guess the first thing is to address the original assertion. I am a "Working freelancer, symphonie type, (and) kolij 'fessor" and I do not advocate to my students that they must buy a CC tuba. My advice is always the same: Buy what fits you best and keep an eye towards what kind of work you want to do and make sure what you buy fits that as well. Not rocket science.

I think the real problem is that students don't assume that anyone they emulate will be any different than they are. Students assume that, given proper equipment and practice, they can do the same things as those they emulate. This does a huge disservice to the students, they should be reaching much higher. Especially if they wish to be successful, as in employed. Students look at the equipment in the hands of the best professionals and go from there. They don't see the years of preparation or the literally hundreds of tubas tried to find the one that fits.

I truly believe that any given tuba, if of good quality and it fits the player, is the one the student should buy. Brands don't matter, key doesn't matter, size doesn't matter. Buy what you sound best on and work hard.

[Erik_Sweden]

I think this is a US vs rest issue. If I look around me none plays CC, all play BBb or Eb tubas where I live (Sweden). So I Think it is a combo off tradition and sound ideal

[brocktorock]

Question from the uneducated:
Speaking strictly of overtones in an orchestra, is there not an advantage to playing a BBb tuba with a Bb trombone section? Is it too small to notice? Also, when speaking of keys, there's the obvious ease of playing. But would a CC tuba SOUND better in the key of C? (Assuming they were playing the conventional roots and what not) I've always wondered this.

[The Big Ben]

I use one frequently. However...
Anytime a youngster comes here and asks about CC tubas, the TNFJ jumps on them. They are shouted down as being extravagant, wasteful, etc., etc. Yet...
Working freelancers, symphonie types, kolij 'fessors, etc. still use them. Many (most?, all?) kolij 'fessers still recommend them as the "base" contrabass instrument for their students.
Does the TNFJ really know better than these tuba professionals and learned scholars of the king of instruments?

I think the questioner is reading his own meaning into what is being read.

1. The most common suggestion on a college tuba is to speak with the prospective professor and go by that advice.
2. The second most common suggestion has been to try to borrow a school horn until you are really ready to commit and have solid reasons for a particular instrument.
3. The third most suggestion always seems to be to get a used high quality horn rather than a new Chinese if funds are short. With the improvements of the Chinese horns, it no longer is really a quality thing but rather a used high quality horn will keep its value and, if not needed after a year, it could very much be sold for the price paid. Nothing new returns the same amount on sale a year later.m
4. The fourth common suggestions are variety of things.

[tofu]

I think there are a variety of reasons. Here are just a few:

1) far more members here are amateurs - and more likely to be BBbers. People tend to recommend what they know.

2) it's a reverse reaction to what was for years that CC had to be better because they typically cost a lot more. Of course there was/is some truth to that because much more expensive horns may (or may not) have more care in their assembly etc than a lower priced horn. Some of that just comes from people who paid a lot trying to justify their own purchases.

3) I think what has a lot to do with it, is simply folks with experience trying to help those with the "if I only had the horn that pro plays" I 'd sound like them, it would solve my bad articulation, embouchure, slurring, air flow etc. mentality. Instead their time/money in truth would be better spent practicing and taking lessons.

I do a lot of cycling and I see this all the time with folks who pay huge amounts to shave ounces off the bike instead of putting in the time on the bike to pick up speed/endurance or maybe getting rid of excess poundage off their own bodies. Of course it's easier to spend money than lose weight!

4) Lets face it an awful lot of money is spent/lost by college students pursueing a very elusive career goal on very expensive truly high end orchestral horns (which are ususally CC) only to have to sell them for a lot less after they throw in the towel on the dream.

Personally I own and play both and can afford to do so. I've always sought out the horn that would do what I needed it to do versus the key.

[Wyvern]

I truly believe that any given tuba, if of good quality and it fits the player, is the one the student should buy. Brands don't matter, key doesn't matter, size doesn't matter. Buy what you sound best on and work hard.

That is one of the most sensible things I have read on TubeNet!

[doublebuzzing]

I wonder why the trombones don't use C trombones? Does any orchestral trombone player use a C instrument?

[windshieldbug]

I wonder why the trombones don't use C trombones? Does any orchestral trombone player use a C instrument?

Given the cylindrical bore profile of a trombone, it really is a moot point.

[doublebuzzing]

I wonder why the trombones don't use C trombones? Does any orchestral trombone player use a C instrument?

Given the cylindrical bore profile of a trombone, it really is a moot point.

Well what about trumpets? They play C trumpets all the time. But, besides that, an argument is made all the time that a tuba in C is easier for the more common keys used in the orchestral literature. Wouldn't that also be true for trombonists?

[swillafew]

The bias in question is really "the person asking doesn't really need to have the (particular) instrument". The most often one asked about is a C instrument, changing from Bb. That part is incidental. Sometimes the person asks about F tubas, and there is the same "you don't need a particular horn" answer in those threads too.

The number of horns for sale (arranged by key) will tell you a lot about what people want to play, the WTB ads too.

Somehow the euphonium players have all dodged this bullet.

[Watchman]

"step-up" ( ← I hate that term!)

What term would be better? "Intermediate" model? "Slightly upgraded student" model? "Instrument you will regret buying but will make the store profit" model?

[jsmn4vu]

Regarding BB vs. C for tubas -- given enough time I could work this into something complete and rational, but for now, let me just hit it a glancing blow.

Consider for a moment playing Bb on each. The length of the bugle will be the same. But the moment you go up a step, to C, the Bb tuba is playing in a higher partial using longer tubing, while the C instrument is playing one partial lower for the same note. The slotting of that note may be expected to be a little more solid, if only a little.

That basic notion could be expanded into something easier to understand, including specific tubing lengths.

The other piece of the puzzle as it relates to response is that when playing a given note in a lower partial (shorter bugle), you have less air mass in the vibrating air column, so less of an effect from that air's elasticity and inertia.

That elasticity is something most tuba players probably don't notice, but transitioning from a trumpet, it is quite noticeable.

[Ken Crawford]

The bias in question is really "the person asking doesn't really need to have the (particular) instrument". The most often one asked about is a C instrument, changing from Bb. That part is incidental. Sometimes the person asks about F tubas, and there is the same "you don't need a particular horn" answer in those threads too.

The number of horns for sale (arranged by key) will tell you a lot about what people want to play, the WTB ads too.

Somehow the euphonium players have all dodged this bullet.

Just imagine if there were a C euphonium...Then euphonium players could be professional musicians!

[The Big Ben]

I think the questioner is reading his own meaning into what is being read.

1. The most common suggestion on a college tuba is to speak with the prospective professor and go by that advice.
2. The second most common suggestion has been to try to borrow a school horn until you are really ready to commit and have solid reasons for a particular instrument.
3. The third most suggestion always seems to be to get a used high quality horn rather than a new Chinese if funds are short. With the improvements of the Chinese horns, it no longer is really a quality thing but rather a used high quality horn will keep its value and, if not needed after a year, it could very much be sold for the price paid. Nothing new returns the same amount on sale a year later.m
4. The fourth common suggestions are variety of things.

I think that's a valid description of the questioner. He is reading from his point of view as a possible soon-to-be tuba undergrad that will want purchase his own contrabass tuba. His exception is that he has already played both BBb and CC thanks to his family owning both.

"The Big Ben" has spent some quality time researching the top responses to the question of buying a tuba. They don't necessarily address the BBb vs CC part of it.

Point being: I didn't see much "BBb good, CC bad" among the respondents. If the family has immediate access to both, they can follow the first suggestion: ask the teacher.

[Jay Bertolet]

Just imagine if there were a C euphonium...Then euphonium players could be professional musicians!

There was a C euphonium. It was called a French C Tuba. Roughly the same bugle as the current day euphonium (but a bit smaller overall), pitched in C in the same octave as a euphonium, generally with 6 valves (3+3). You don't see them much anymore, I wonder why....