nice tarnished R.S. Williams and Sons tuba ...

[Thermionman]

I recently acquired this small nicely tarnished R.S. Williams and Sons Toronto Class B E flat tuba.and I really love it..want to use it for recording and live playing .I paid about $125.00 for it from an antique shop...The valves work okay ,may need new cork or felt in the valves...slides are seized of course , oh well.....Unfortunately it requires a small shank mouthpiece...I have been using a Shilke 50 euphonium mouthpiece and it sounds okay but the low B flat sounds thin .....and I am sure it would sound awesome with a bigger cup mouthpiece.. I did all some research and learned that this tuba was made by Boosey for Canadian import ..I just got a used gorgeous funnel shaped gold plated Dennis Wick #3 mouthpiece and of course ....it was too big. ...arghhh...goes in but only about 1/4 of an inch .so I guess will stick with euphonium mouthpiece..I may try a deep cup Bach 2G bass trombone/euphonium mouthpiece (large shank) hope that works and brings out the low register much better... I read that years ago in marching bands the E flat tuba player would switch from E flat tuba to euphonium ...so maybe this tuba is meant to use a euphonium mouthpiece......,or maybe some other size like a medium European shank mouthpiece...I don't know.....????

[MikeW]

It takes the old British small shank tuba mouthpiece, like a Wick #1 or something. What size bore is yours?

Sorry to disagree, but the Denis Wick 3 only inserts a quarter inch or so; we therefore know that the "old British size" (aka "Small Euro Tuba" size, or American E-flat size) with a tip diameter of .49" is too big, and the "Large Trombone" size is even bigger with .496" at the tip.

The next size down is the "Medium Euph" (aka European Euph), which turns up occasionally on antique tubas.

One or two instruments have also come up on TN that have the "Small Tenor Trombone" shank size, but the Kelly Mouthpiece website quotes the receiver size for one of these as .48", so the Wick 3 mouthpiece (tip diameter .49") should not insert at all if it has one of these.

The most likely size is therefore the Medium Euph shank. This is not a common size, but I think there is a list of mouthpieces this size over at Dave Werden's Euph site. If you want one with a modern tuba cup profile (as opposed to Euph) your best bet is probably Doug Elliot's three piece system, with a Medium Euph shank..

Or you might be able to get an American Standard receiver fitted, giving you a huge choice of tuba MP's. Do some reading first: some experts on TN hold that this introduces an undesirable step-change into the mouthpipe bore - I'm not an expert, but the "Advanced Search" feature on here may turn up more info. A random thought: if your tech has a used "Small Euro" receiver in his spares box, you may be able to get it fitted, and use your gold-plated Wick 3 (a lot of people on here recommend the 3 for E-flat).

One thing to consider is that you have a class B instrument, which does nothing for its resale value, so you may not recover any money you put into it.

[Thermionman]

Hello.Thanks for reply........so a bass trombone shank is even larger than a Dennis Wick #3,.that is not good, as I was thinking on getting a Bach 2G or 3G bass trombone mouthpiece...I am using a Shilke 50 but I am not sure if it is a large or medium shank( you can actually see it in my other euphonium mouthpiece post)...wish I knew.....,got it used.... seems to fit the euphonium just right and I think it is a large shank .....a Shilke 51D or larger might sound better...

[Thermionman]

Thankyou Kiltie Tuba!

[MikeW]

http://www.deniswick.com/all-products/m ... ba-classic

The original posting states quite clearly that the Wick 3 goes in, but only about a quarter inch.
Therefore the shank on the Wick 3 is a tad too big.
The Wick 1 has the same size shank as the Wick 3,
Therefore the shank on the Wick 1 is also too big.

Your best bet is either to change out the receiver
or have the shank on your Wick 3 turned down to fit.

[ghmerrill]

I wonder if there aren't some confusions here about exactly what Wick mouthpieces are in play. I'm not entirely sure that the OP has been totally clear on this. For example, ...

Wick tuba mouthpieces come in two shank sizes: "large", and "small". The large sizes are designated with an 'L' after the size number. They are NOT referred to as '#1', '#2', '#3', etc., but rather as 1, 1L, 2, 2L, 3, 3L, etc.

I use a 2XL (so a "large" shank) on my Wessex 981 clone. If I try to put it into the receiver of my 1924 Buescher, it fits in about 3/8" to 1/2". Unuseable (also much too big a mouthpiece for that horn ).

If I put the Wick 5 (NOT a 5L!) into the Buescher receiver, it fits perfectly. The Wick 5 (and 4, and 3, etc. -- i.e., without the 'L') are almost exactly the same size taper as a standard large shank trombone mouthpiece. Not quite, but close enough so that a large shank trombone mouthpiece (like a Wick 3AL, 2AL, or Schilke 60) can be used on that tuba -- just sounds like crap.

FYI, here are some measurements (not speculations) that I just took of mouthpieces in my possession. The first measurement in each case is at the end of the shank, and the second is 1" up toward the bowl from that.

Denis Wick 2XL: 0.5280" (13.42 mm), 0.5755" (14.61 mm)
Denis Wick 5: 0.4955" (12.59 mm), 0.5405" (13.73 mm)
Denis Wick (Trombone) 2AL: 0.5055" (12.84 mm), 0.5515" (14.00 mm)
Schilke 60: 0.5010" (12.72 mm), 0.5465" (13.88 mm).

Of course you may end up with some ten-thousandths of an inch differences depending on exactly where you take the measurement., but round up to thousandths and you'll be very close to these.

The Wick 5 works well on my Buescher Eb. I do wonder if a Wick 00AL might not work better. I must try it some time.

[tubasaz]

Mouthpiece shank sizes - measured at the end and about at 1 inch:

Wick 3L Tuba 13.3 mm / 14.5 mm
Wick 3 Tuba 12.4 / 13.6
Yamaha 60L Bass tbone 12.7 / 14.0
Schilke 59 Bass tbone 12.7 / 13.7
Wick SM2M European Euphonium 11.55 / 12.75

- no any garanti – all measurements approximates

[ghmerrill]

I'd also advise that -- before you make any final decision, or even tests, on a mouthpiece -- you CLEAN the lead pipe and receiver thoroughly, with a brush and detergent or 409. As I mentioned in another thread, by the time I had done this three or four times, it changed the size shank the receiver accepted -- there was that much hardened gunk built up in the receiver over decades.

[Thermionman]

Wow ...will do .Thanks for reply

[MikeW]

I wonder if there aren't some confusions here about exactly what Wick mouthpieces are in play. I'm not entirely sure that the OP has been totally clear on this ...

Good point. The OP says his MP inserts to a depth of about a quarter inch:

• If the mouthpiece is a Denis Wick 3, as described, it should have a tip diameter of about .49", and the most likely receiver size is Medium Euph, as discussed earlier.
• If it is actually a Denis Wick 3L, then it should have a tip diameter of about .52", and the most likely receiver size would then be Small Euro Tuba (aka. Small shank tuba, British Tuba, E-flat Tuba ...)

Note that dimensions are given to an accuracy no better than "about": there is no "official" standard for mouthpiece dimensions, and most manufacturers do not publish their design details. The only information I have found comes from:

• Vincent Bach Mouthpiece Manual (online) covers stock Bach mouthpiece sizes (but not special order items like the Small Euro size)
• The non-Bach numbers come from a posting on TN some time ago by Matt Walters of Dillon Music (many thanks, Matt!)
• I have picked up a few items since then, from various other TN postings

Various people have noted that actual hardware may vary a good deal (by design or by poor QC) so variations of plus/minus .005" or more cause no surprise.
Edit: According to the table on the "Kelly Mouthpieces" website, a "small shank tuba" receiver should have an opening of .56". If this is what you have the choice of mouthpieces is limited; many postings on TN recommend the Denis Wick 3 (with no L) mouthpiece for E-flat tubas, and Kelly Mouthpieces list two stainless-steel models. Apart from those, you can get a Selmansberger Imperial (aka Blokepiece) with the British shank, or Doug Elliot also offers this shank size.
If the receiver opening is only .51, then it needs a Medium Euph mouthpiece, as discussed earlier in this thread.

[ghmerrill]

... many postings on TN recommend the Denis Wick 3 (with no L) mouthpiece for E-flat tubas

... which I have always found puzzling in the case of "vintage" instruments. It is considerably too big (bowl size; not shank) on my Buescher Eb. And that recommendation is also incompatible with the perhaps even more common claim that the original mouthpieces for these instrument were quite shallow, and so a shallow mouthpiece should be found.

I suspect that there is wide variance among instruments, and that a significant amount of experimentation is in order. My "backup" mouthpiece for the Buescher is a Kelly 25 on which I have turned down the shank. I really like the feel of it, and the sound, but it induces intonation issues that the Wick 5 doesn't have (at least doesn't have as much ).

[Thermionman]

.......well I think for now.....I will get the deepest cup euphonium mouthpiece available ...I can go back and forth from euphonium to the tuba.....

[MikeW]

From the Kelly Mouthpieces website, here is a link to a useful looking table of receiver openings:

http://www.kellymouthpieces.com/shanks/index.asp

If you measure the internal diameter of the receiver opening on your instrument, you can look up the most probable shank size from this table. Dimensions on actual hardware may vary (by design, or by poor QC) so there is still a little uncertainty.

[Thermionman]

....wow this tuba has a leaf spring spit valve.......maybe it is over 100 years old ??

[Thermionman]

http://simonettitubacollection.com/inst ... on-c-1915/" target="_blank" target="_blank

interesting.........here's one that takes a small shank trombone mouthpiece