Has anyone played one of these tubas?

[poomshanka]

From http://www.kunst-brass.de/.

Very unusual design, interesting valve layout. I'm curious if they're "production horns", or more one-offs like the Theins...

[adam0408]

is this la similar concept to an open wrap trombone? The tubing never bends the airstream much at all coming out of the valves.... COOL

[corbasse]

I like his traveling french horn:


Definately something wrong with the bending jig, or he has some truly radical ideas..

[poomshanka]

is this la similar concept to an open wrap trombone? The tubing never bends the airstream much at all coming out of the valves.... COOL

Something tells me that these are just regular rotary valves, but that the tubing comes in straight, as oppoed to that quick 45 degree deflection you'd normally get if the tuning slides were running north/south/east/west. This would, I'd imagine, allow for a slightly smoother airstream, but not necessarily a straight thru-shot, a la a Thayer type valve.

Any players in Europe had a chance to try one out?

Thanx...

...Dave

[adam0408]

so what would happen if someone put thayer valves on a tuba?

[poomshanka]

so what would happen if someone put thayer valves on a tuba?

I believe the consensus in the past was that it would be very heavy, and the resistance (or perhaps lack thereof) would be pretty squirrely. Someone mentioned a euphonium that had them, and I guess it was a fairly miserable instrument...

Any one ever see a tuba using Thayer valves?


No tuba, but a converted YEP-321 euphonium. You wouldn't like it-very very heavy; it was impossible to get the 2nd valve slide short enough to play in tune and the whole affair felt "windy" (i.e. leaky).

[Lars Trawen]

Some time ago there was a discussion just about that zig-zag tuba first pictured.
Check out viewtopic.php?t=4067&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[poomshanka]

Some time ago there was a discussion just about that zig-zag tuba first pictured.
Check out viewtopic.php?t=4067&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Interesting. For all the anecdotal/hypothetical musings presented, still nobody who's played one. Of course, it'd be folly to assume that every tuba player in Europe reads TubeNet, and that might just be the only place where these horns exist.

Looks like a trip overseas might be the only way to find a definitive answer...

...Dave

[Glaucon]

The look of this horn is very interesting and something I've often pondered -- how to get a clean, free-blowing airstearm though the valve slides.

This horn looks fantastice for doing just that -- very "loopy," if you will. I imagine down low it would be a monster.

If you look, however, it appears that if no valves were depressed, the airstream would follow a rather zig-zag path. I imagine that a lot of the resonance that we are all used to on our open and few-valved pitches (C or Bb and G or F) would be lost. In fact, it looks much more like this horn would open up and become more free-blowing the more valves that were depressed -- especially if it was a graduated-bore.

A very good idea, but I think the best balence of airstream continuity through both open- and multiple-valve combination pitches can already be found on a number of piston horns available right here in the US.

Besides, let's not forget -- a horn is only as open as you blow it. People even thought Jake's horn was stuffy until they learned how to play it like...well, like he did.

[Glaucon]

The look of this horn is very interesting and something I've often pondered -- how to get a clean, free-blowing airstearm though the valve slides.

This horn looks fantastice for doing just that -- very "loopy," if you will. I imagine down low it would be a monster.

If you look, however, it appears that if no valves were depressed, the airstream would follow a rather zig-zag path. I imagine that a lot of the resonance that we are all used to on our open and few-valved pitches (C or Bb and G or F) would be lost. In fact, it looks much more like this horn would open up and become more free-blowing the more valves that were depressed -- especially if it was a graduated-bore.

A very good idea, but I think the best balence of airstream continuity through both open- and multiple-valve combination pitches can already be found on a number of piston horns available right here in the US.

Besides, let's not forget -- a horn is only as open as you blow it. People even thought Jake's horn was stuffy until they learned how to play it like...well, like he did.

[Rick Denney]

If you look, however, it appears that if no valves were depressed, the airstream would follow a rather zig-zag path. I imagine that a lot of the resonance that we are all used to on our open and few-valved pitches (C or Bb and G or F) would be lost.

No, not at all. It just has ports that come straight out of the openings in the rotors. All rotors are symmetrical, meaning that their ports center on 45-degree points of the compass. Otherwise, they wouldn't line up in both positions with both sets of pipes. The typical rotary tuba's open bugle has a lead pipe that turns a 45-degree angle going into the first valve, a 90-degree angle through the rotor, and another 45-degree angle coming out, at which time it goes straight for a fraction of an inch and then turns 45 degrees into the second valve, and so on. So, you have 180 degrees of total change of direction for each valve on the typical rotary design, even through the open bugle. If the valve is actuated, then you have the same 180 degrees of change of direction, but at each end of the valve branch. So, depressing the valve adds 360 degrees of total change of direction to the bugle, not considering the bends in the valve tubing.

This tuba's tubing goes straight into the 45-degree port on the valve. Thus, you have only 90 degrees of directional change in each valve through the open bugle. When the valve is actuated, you have 180 degrees of direction change added by the valve (again, not considering the valve branch tubing). So, for both the open bugle and for actuated valves, the total directional change is cut in half with this design.

The question is this: Do those changes of direction matter that much? The designers of this instrument seem to think so. I'm not so sure.

Rick "thinking the air path through rotary valves only looks straight from the outside, and then only from a distance" Denney

[poomshanka]

The question is this: Do those changes of direction matter that much? The designers of this instrument seem to think so. I'm not so sure.

Not that I view this design approach as gimmicky, or anything like that, but I'd also guess that the rest of the horn probably has a pretty big effect on how it plays. Even if the valves were the end of the world, putting them in a garbage bugle would be about like dropping a Ferrari F1 V10 engine into a Ford Pinto.

I agree with Rick's math here, and suspect that dropping 450-900 degrees of deflection out of the airstream would have *some* positive overall effect. Even at a push, though, it would certainly turn a few heads from an aesthetic standpoint.

Of course, that leadpipe looks like it could probably use one of these....

[poomshanka]

I would certainly like to see how the actual rotors look when removed from the casing.

Hmmm... Do you think they'd be any different from a regular rotary valve? It kinda looks to me like they just rotated the casing 45 degrees to accommodate a more direct entry angle for the pipes. Then again, I don't build horns for a living, so perhaps others might be seeing something here that I'm missing.

To my original post, still wondering how it plays...

...Dave

[Chuck(G)]

I disagree.

I don't think that any of the angles make any difference on virtually any horn.

This is the same argument used by people that reverse the direction of their valves or remove the spit valves because it allegedly decreases the wind resistance through the instrument.

I don't think the issue is so much dynamic flow resistance as it is with unnecessary bends detracting from the resonance of the horn; i.e., the concern is one of acoustics more than fluid dynamics.

A large organ pipe that had been mitered to fit into a smaller space doesn't speak as well as one that has been left straight. I'd speculate that the fewer contortions a souind wave has to go through could only improve resonance.

[gwwilk]

I don't think the issue is so much dynamic flow resistance as it is with unnecessary bends detracting from the resonance of the horn; i.e., the concern is one of acoustics more than fluid dynamics.

A large organ pipe that had been mitered to fit into a smaller space doesn't speak as well as one that has been left straight. I'd speculate that the fewer contortions a souind wave has to go through could only improve resonance.

I think you've nailed it down pretty well, Chuck. The resonance of the column of air as it interacts with the pathway that contains it is probably far more important than any airflow considerations.

I just wish someone could tell us how these instruments play!

[Rick Denney]

It kinda looks to me like they just rotated the casing 45 degrees to accommodate a more direct entry angle for the pipes.

No, the valves are oriented the same as a regular rotary instrument. Look at a rotary tuba and you'll see that the openings in the casing are the same. The difference is that this tube has no curve in the tubing knuckle attached to the side of the casing.

Rick "recalling old rotary tubas whose leadpipes and exiting bugle left the first and fourth valves at 45-degree angles" Denney

[poomshanka]

No, the valves are oriented the same as a regular rotary instrument. Look at a rotary tuba and you'll see that the openings in the casing are the same. The difference is that this tube has no curve in the tubing knuckle attached to the side of the casing.

Oops, I have one leg out on my chair, and was actually looking at it *at* a 45 degree angle. My bad. See, I got so wrapped up thinking about the sound, I lost track of the appearance.



I *will* solve this mystery in my lifetime, and deliver a full report to the forum.

...Dave

[Billy M.]

<snip> See, I got so wrapped up thinking about the sound, I lost track of the appearance.



I *will* solve this mystery in my lifetime, and deliver a full report to the forum.

...Dave

Rimshot for dave!

[Kevin Hendrick]

I've tried to picture the difference in "angularity" between an ordinary tuba and the one on Daniel Kunst's site. Hopefully there are two pictures below, in both cases attempting to illustrate the airstream with no valves or all valves open, respectively.

Your pictures show the difference very well -- thanks, Sven!

[UDELBR]

And now for the grand finale:

price: € 19200 ($ 24880 today)

But it has only 72% of a Thein's "specialness" .