Observation about Bb horns

[Dan Schultz]

Terry... that has been my experience with every CC tuba I've had here. It seems like at least the 1st valve partials are all over the place... plus other problems I don't have with BBb tubas. I'll catch a lot of flak for saying so but I've long held that CC tubas evolved from BBb designs. The notion that CC tubas are built to higher standards is rubbish. The money for the tuba manufacturers is in the BBb horns since that's their largest market.

[windshieldbug]

Playing in a band, you are playing with a lot of other Bb instruments. It doesn't take very much effort to be in tune with them. Many of the pitch tendencies are the same, and presumably you are using even-tempered tuning.

In orchestra or quintet you may be using just tuning, and there following your ears would require as much pulling and pushing on just about any keyed horn.

[Dan Schultz]

My 186 CC came with a BBb conversion slide.

Two feet of additional straight pipe does not make a good BBb tuba out of a CC tuba.

[PaulMaybery]

Sure, you can lay testimony to all of the quirks on CC vs BBb tubas. And theories as to why that is. Tonight was band rehearsal with a rather good group here in Minnesota. I use my BMB CC BAT in the band. My section partner has a BBb 3/4 sizes BMB. A third player has a rebuilt vintage BBb Martin with 4 pistons. With none of us messing much with riding slides, we lock in dead on. And we also are very well in tune with the band as a whole. All three of us have very good ears and just listen and put the note/pitch were it needs to be, and for the most part we do that with the chops. My take is that so many intonation issues get blamed on using horns of various pitches in the same section. If you all play in tune, all the tubas will be in tune. If someone has a 'tin ear' then there are problems. Granted there are plenty of horns with erratic harmonics but I have found just as many in the BBb camp as the CC. I found the CCs easier to play in tune, being shorter, my take is they can be lipped in tune with much less effort. On every BBb I ever played in over 50 years, I have always had issues with the Gb and Db 2/3 combination. And the 1st valve always needed adjustment for Eb, Ab, C and Eb.
I do practice regularly with a tuner and keep reinforcing where I need to put the note. Sometimes it gets confusing trying to remember the quirks of each horn. Often times if I pick up one of my horns cold, and just blow, it will put the pitch where it wants and I will pitchewise sound all over the place. But granted some horns are just dogs and miserable to try to play with a good sound and in tune.

[Three Valves]

BBb, three valves, does anyone really need more??

[bort]

Question -- do you think that CC tuba "technology" will eventually catch up to BBb "technology"? That is, maybe BBb's are better off because of the additional decades of existence, research, and development. If an "in-tune" BBb can be built, there's absolutely no reason it can't be done in CC as well -- it's completely arbitrary.

No matter to me though, my horn was tuned at the factory.

[jsmn4vu]

Question -- do you think that CC tuba "technology" will eventually catch up to BBb "technology"? That is, maybe BBb's are better off because of the additional decades of existence, research, and development. If an "in-tune" BBb can be built, there's absolutely no reason it can't be done in CC as well -- it's completely arbitrary.

Based on such notable examples as Yamaha's YCB-826S and Matt Walters' Eastman EBC-632 (I've played 'em both), I'd say the technology is well caught up, and any gap is in the implementation of C tubas in general.

[PaulMaybery]

I would however add that 'idiomatic writing' for B flat fingerings as is found in circus marches and galops and some of the 'lickity split' parts in those vintage orchestra transcriptions would beckon me to haul out the BBb or Eb if the entire program were to be that style of literature. (Were just one piece such as Barnum and Bailey's, Rolling Thunder or Circus Bee scheduled, I would just live with it.) But I will never forget the hard lesson I learned when I took a CC tuba to play "World's Toughest Rodeo" and the charts were clocked at well over 200 beats per minute and were in anywhere from 3 to 6 flats. My poor right hand was screaming at the end of the show.
When I was much much younger (early 1960s) and making a transition to CC tuba from BBb at the advice of my sagacious symphony orchestra teacher, I spoke with Bill Bell about the BBb. His simple answer at that time was that BBb is for Band and CC for Orchestra. He did not elaborate. Later when I saw him playing in a well known concert band in New York he was playing his big ol' Martin recording bass, with just 3 valves. I also caught him doing a solo on his Eb sousaphone. But then he could make everything work.
So, I suppose my point (if there be one here) is that the idiom or nature of the music at one time did figure into the game. If you were versed in tubas in several keys, then it could make life easier if you used a task appropriate tool for the job.
Today's band concerts include music that is not necessarily written with the older traditional idiom in mind and tends to cross many boundaries of styles and traditions. For the most part I use my 6/4 CC for band, mostly for the presence of the sound and that it is a very well made and smoothly functioning instrument that is simply a joy to play. I find it neither easier or more difficult to play in tune. In my mind, any tuba takes time to learn.

[Davidus1]

Sure, you can lay testimony to all of the quirks on CC vs BBb tubas. And theories as to why that is. Tonight was band rehearsal with a rather good group here in Minnesota. I use my BMB CC BAT in the band. My section partner has a BBb 3/4 sizes BMB. A third player has a rebuilt vintage BBb Martin with 4 pistons. With none of us messing much with riding slides, we lock in dead on. And we also are very well in tune with the band as a whole. All three of us have very good ears and just listen and put the note/pitch were it needs to be, and for the most part we do that with the chops. My take is that so many intonation issues get blamed on using horns of various pitches in the same section. If you all play in tune, all the tubas will be in tune. If someone has a 'tin ear' then there are problems. Granted there are plenty of horns with erratic harmonics but I have found just as many in the BBb camp as the CC. I found the CCs easier to play in tune, being shorter, my take is they can be lipped in tune with much less effort. On every BBb I ever played in over 50 years, I have always had issues with the Gb and Db 2/3 combination. And the 1st valve always needed adjustment for Eb, Ab, C and Eb.
I do practice regularly with a tuner and keep reinforcing where I need to put the note. Sometimes it gets confusing trying to remember the quirks of each horn. Often times if I pick up one of my horns cold, and just blow, it will put the pitch where it wants and I will pitchewise sound all over the place. But granted some horns are just dogs and miserable to try to play with a good sound and in tune.

What does your section mate think of his BMB 3/4 BBb? I'm in the market and curious what he (and you) think of it. Thanks.

[PaulMaybery]

I get the impression he loves it. It is actually one of the Brazil made Gemeinhardts, before the production was moved to China and the name change to BMB. He is on Tubenet and may chime in. I did play the instrument sometime back and it is a great tuba. Very open, great intonation, lightning fast stainless pistons and it slots really well. He can easily match my volume on the 6/4 with his 3/4, albeit the sound is much more compact (it does stay focused at high volume) and less ambient.
That tuba is also available in CC and has also gotten rave reviews. Together I think we have a magic bullet. They complement each other very well. But, it obviously it is not a replacement for a BAT.

[Davidus1]

Thanks Paul. That's very helpful. I am wanting it for a variety of uses to include a tuba quartet. Pleasantly surprised to hear about the volume of the 3/4. That's definitely an added plus!