Does this exist? (Non-Yorky piston tubas)

[bort]

Does this exist?

-- CC tuba
-- 4 piston, 1 rotor
-- 4/4 to 5/4 (not huge, but a "do it all" tuba)
-- "German rotary sound" instead of "American "York" sound"
-- Not Chinese

There are a ton of piston CC tubas out there, so I'm curious which, if any, sound the least "Yorky." Any thoughts?

[Dubby]

Do you have any experience with a Besson 995? My teacher has one and it doesn't sound, at least not to me, as much "York-ish" as other CC horns. Otherwise, maybe one of the German-made CC piston tubas like the 2145, 1241/2/3? Heck, Rudy makes a piston CC and I'd be surprised if that sounded more American than German based on their rotary horns.

[bort]

Thanks... yeah, I'm a little curious about the 2145, especially one of the earlier small-valve, small bell versions, which are a bit different than the later 2145's, especially the BBC ones.

Been a long time since I tried a 995, I only remember the one I tried where the fingerings for C, C#, and D in the staff all sounded like the same note!

[tubacorbin]

My thoughts immediately went towards the Rudy piston CC.

[swillafew]

I got to play with some very enjoyable people tonight on good literature. I don't think they cared a bit what brand I played. Hope you can find this joy...

[Mark Horne]

Kalison DS model may be the flavor you're looking for. I know my old Pro 2000 had the best pistons that I've played.

[Michael Bush]

There's that Jupiter (don't remember the model number) that appears to be a piston valve 186.

[DouglasJB]

YCB 822

[bort]

I got to play with some very enjoyable people tonight on good literature. I don't think they cared a bit what brand I played. Hope you can find this joy...

Thanks... but I already don't care what other people think about it, nor do I care what other people choose for themselves. It's what *I* think about *me* that matters!

[bigboymusic]

Thor or one of the awesome Mirafone CC's out there......

[Tom]

How about the piston version (3050) of the Willson you've got right now...??? They've never struck me as very "Yorky." I don't think I'd classify it as the German rotary sound, but it's probably closer to that than to the York sound.

Or a piston Neptune or PT-7 or PT-6p. They lean more towards the German rotary sound than American York sound.

Some Hirsbrunner models sound more German rotary than American York. I'm thinking of the HB-21 and HB 2p, specifically.

But...you already know that the best way to get the German rotary tuba sound is to buy a German rotary tuba.

[bort]

Thanks for all the other replies as well.

The Thor always seemed pretty huge to me, but maybe it's more nimble than I remember? I used to own a Miraphone 1291, and liked a lot of things about it, but for me it was always a big horn in a small body. It was tricky to make it play smaller or lighter.

I wonder if the Ursus(sp?) is pretty close to this concept...?

[k001k47]

I'm assuming you mean this:
"Yorky" is to the CSO york and the horns it inspired (or was inspired by) as "German" is to 186, 163, and Rudys (among other horns).

Here are my stupid observations. The York-ish horns tend to expand fast early in the inner branches, so they have fat bottom and top bows. The bore through the valves is moderately sized. Well. . . The CSO has a large bore compared to say, a monster Eb. An Alex 163, in comparison, stays "skinnier" through the top and bottom bows, and has a bore over .800"; maybe it's due to the smaller size, but I've observed that Cerveny Kaisers and Rudy 5/4 s don't get quite as fat so soon in their bugle taper as the "Yorky" BATs.


Assuming these two design factors play into the playing characteristics you want, larger Meinl Weston piston varieties - Thor comes to mind - and other horns mentioned seem to fit the bill well. Maybe a PT 6 or 7, but those are as tubby and synth - like as it gets.

But . . . well. Maybe the sound coming out of the bell depends mostly on the operator. I feel like this was a bait question to bring out the idiots and I fell for it

[bort]

Correct -- and again, it's so hard to describe a sound!

The question, I suppose, is which piston tubas have the least "tubby" sound. The CSO York or a big Holton is about the opposite direction from what I like. The Conn 5xJ's are okay, but still have that huge bell flair that gives that sort of "wide presence" sound instead of a more focused sound. I realize it's as much of a factor of bell shape as it is valve *type*, but valve *bore* does matter.

Thanks for all the replies, keep 'em coming.

[k001k47]

I can only think of a rotary horn that isn't 'german' or 186ish: the King Symphony models or MW Bell model. I always felt mine sounded like an old American piston tuba.

Maybe Marty's kaiser tuba with piston valves is what you need . . . or find a way to put a piston valve set on an old 186 with crapped out valves. I think that sounds like a fun project.

Also, the Jupiter CC tubas have always looked like piston valves on a rotary horn bugle to me... but that's already been thrown out there

[bort]

Thanks again for all the public and private replies.

I got some good time in on the Willson tonight. Makes me think -- what a shame they don't make a 4/4 sized rotary CC tuba (or any smaller CC tuba). This is a KILLER tuba and I'll be stupid if I change from it. I'm just realizing that bigger isn't better... it's just bigger.

[Billy M.]

What was the promise you had about keeping that Willson?

[chronolith]

Bort,

Come on down to Chicago and try my small bell Thor, if only for reference. I sought out the small bell version for the exact reason you mention. Nimble? Yeah. It is quite clearly not a 4/4 horn though and some find it demanding on posture.

[bort]

What was the promise you had about keeping that Willson?

Oohhhh....uhhh... I forgot?

PS -- I didn't promise to not research other options.

[bort]

Bort,

Come on down to Chicago and try my small bell Thor, if only for reference. I sought out the small bell version for the exact reason you mention. Nimble? Yeah. It is quite clearly not a 4/4 horn though and some find it demanding on posture.

I *might* be down there in November for work, will drop a line if I am. I like the way the Thor plays, but I've always felt like it's a few inches too tall for me. I'm a pretty average height (just under 6 ft) and they just seem really tall to me. I've never tried a small bell one, would be interested to try it!

Besides the physical size, I think the size of sound on the Willson might be "more" more than I wanted. (That is, I wanted "more" sound, but the amount "more" is more than I might want.) I didn't like the feeling of pushing a smaller horn, and thought I'd be happier holding back a bigger horn. But after almost 20 years of pushing a smaller horn, I'm struggling to feel comfortable with a bigger horn. Honestly, from "out front," the sound of pushing a smaller horn is just as satisfying as playing a bigger horn.

Time and practice will certainly my situation, but frankly I'm a little short on both of those right now. It might be more efficient for me to use a horn better suited for my style, than to try and adapt my style. I sound like such a grouchy old man when I say that I don't want to change, it sounds stupid. But if I have limited time, I want to be efficient and sound like me.