Fatty fatty tuba for...

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Chuck(G)
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Post by Chuck(G) »

funkcicle wrote:"Organic" food isn't more expensive by design, it's more expensive because people are willing to accept that processed convenient garbage is "normal" and 'organic'='special', which is simply not true. Are there any agricultural co-ops where you guys live? I get most of my foods from a farmers market that meets every 2nd weekend..I pay a LOT less than I do at the grocery store, my food tastes a lot better, my colon is a lot more functional, and the food is less than a few weeks old by the time I consume it(compare to 1-to-6-to-24 months old when bought from the local super-convenience-mart).
Another approach to this is to team up with one of the community-sponsored agriculture (CSA) programs near you. Usually, the way it works is for a weekly, monthly or seasonal fee, they furnish a box of produce grown locally. You get nice fresh produce and the small farmers get thier produce sold.

My wife and I go with a "hybrid" CSA group. During the growing season, the bulk of the produce comes locally, but during the off-season, we get not only hothouse produce, but stuff grown by CSA farmers in California.

You never know quite what you're going to get. More than once, I've gone scurrying to the web to find out how one cooks raab, jerusalem artichokes, burdock, and heaven knows what else. Staples like potatoes, onions, garlic, shallots and eggs are also part of the deal. It's all been good and fresh.
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Post by ThomasDodd »

funkcicle wrote:"Organic" food isn't more expensive by design, it's more expensive because people are willing to accept that processed convenient garbage is "normal" and 'organic'='special', which is simply not true.
The issue is not that organic food are more expensive, but the processed food are cheaper.
The whokle reason for the processing is to reduce costs, by alowing cheaper distribution models and longer shelf life (so les waste).
Are there any agricultural co-ops where you guys live? I get most of my foods from a farmers market that meets every 2nd weekend..I pay a LOT less than I do at the grocery store, my food tastes a lot better, my colon is a lot more functional, and the food is less than a few weeks old by the time I consume it(compare to 1-to-6-to-24 months old when bought from the local super-convenience-mart).
The co-ops are cheaper because you've cut out a middle man. For the same products to go from farm to store adds several layers, but the USDA regulations. All are skipped with the co-op model.

The co-op model is only viable for a few products in any location. Try getting fruit (citrus in particular) in the mid-west. Or off-season produce anywhere. I've not seen many co-op with meats either.

FWIW, I cannot even find fresh, non processed milk, or fresh eggs around here.
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Post by Joe Baker »

funkcicle wrote:"Organic" food isn't more expensive by design, it's more expensive because people are willing to accept that processed convenient garbage is "normal" and 'organic'='special',
Have you ever grown fruits or vegetables? I've done so (never to make a living, just for my family and friends) since I was a kid. I grow my tomatoes almost organically (so I use Miracle Gro; SUE ME!). By avoiding other chemicals, I double the amount of work it takes to tend them, and (between bugs and blight) cut my yield in half. That's okay for me, because I don't need that many tomatoes. But the judicious use of chemicals has made it possible for people to produce enough food that NO ONE ever needs to go hungry because there isn't enough food. Governments get in the way, distribution channels break down, but there is enough food because of modern farming with chemicals. I think there may be a case to be made that hormones have been overused in livestock production, but I'm not interested in a world where pesticides aren't available to save crops from swarming insects, or where blights can run unchecked and destroy half the nation's vegetable crops. As long as these are used judiciously, I don't see the problem.

As for hybrids -- again, I don't see the problem. Remember, an animal or a plant is a conglomeration of sugars and other carbohydrates, amino acids -- things that the body breaks down into components for its own use. Peeling a potato probably causes a lot more loss of nutritional value than hybridizing ever did.
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Post by tubatooter1940 »

When one's quest for love morphs into a quest for food,It's not very long before you can't even get into your own pants.
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Post by JCalkin »

bloke wrote:
Atkins deprives your brain of the carbohydrates it needs to function, and it causes you to become irritable as a result. Not good.


I don't hear a lot of M.D.'s making these sorts of statements (though they, admittedly, probably aren't the world's top biochemists either). I know nothing about this, but I would assume that if the consumption of large quantities of carbohydrates was needed for the brain to function, millions of Americans would be dropping dead - not in ten or twenty years, but in ten or twenty weeks.
I hadn't heard this either, but what I HAVE heard from medical people is that a complete lack of carbs will cause other important organs to shut down, i.e. kidneys. This is why the earlier attempts at marketing the Atkins (NO carbs whatsoever) failed miserably, IIRC. The Atkins we all know and loathe is actually a modified version of the original diet specifically designed not to kill you, heh, heh.

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Post by tubeast »

In the late 70s I remember a huge boom in low-fat products taking place in Germany. You know, 10% fat sausages, cheese, margarine and all that. It didn´t take a long time until a paperback named "Essen Sie gern Tapetenkleister ?" (Do you like to eat plaster ? (or whatever the stuff is called you put on wallpaper to glue it to the wall)) showed up. It described the measures the industry needs to take to make something fatless look, taste, smell and feel like the real thing.
(You know, you´ll have to find SOMETHING that´ll feel greasy enough so the customer would be willing to put it between bread and jelly. All it takes is some stuff to seal off the bread´s pores, and THAT´s low fat margarine)
Over here we are SOOOO proud of our sausage and bread products, but still the main concern of the food companies is to figure out how to make coloured and aromatized water cuttable with a knife.
I´d rather go for the "Eat Less Do More" method of weight control.

So now consider that European Union is paying farmers to NOT use some parts of their grounds for excessive production of foods, fertilizers other than organic material begin to sound ridiculous to the average know-it-all urban person.

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Post by Rick Denney »

bloke wrote:I don't hear a lot of M.D.'s making these sorts of statements (though they, admittedly, probably aren't the world's top biochemists either). I know nothing about this, but I would assume that if the consumption of large quantities of carbohydrates was needed for the brain to function, millions of Americans would be dropping dead - not in ten or twenty years, but in ten or twenty weeks.
Just like all extreme diets, Atkins goes too far. If higher protein is good, then nothing but protein would be better, right? If our diets are too high in carbohydrate, then we should go right to the other extreme, etc., especially if we want to sell a lot of books.

By the way, all we eat, just about are carbohydrates, except for the fat, of course. Most of our protein sources are more fat than protein. And we eat bread and fries by the ton, and that is all carbohydrate. Thus, I don't think the average American has tested the theory that brains can't function without carbohydrate.

I like the Neanderthal diet, because I think it's the one most likely to match up with the design of the Maker. Back in our hunter-gatherer days, which was hundreds of thousands of years (depending on whose schedule you read), and which ended variously (depending on location) over the last 2-4 thousand years, we ate 1.) what we could catch, and 2.) what happened to grow out of the ground that didn't require much in the way of cooking. Thus, we ate lots of nuts, fruits and vegetables, because they can be eaten right after picking, and we ate lots of meat (I'm including fish). The former is mostly carbohydrate with a bit of fat, and the latter is mostly protein with relatively more fat.

In the grand scheme of things, we have been agrarian for a pretty short time. And we have been cooks for a pretty short time. It's possible that many of us are not biologically suited to being agrarian cooks, especially exclusively. The diet that has always been most effective for me is the balanced diet--a balance of the sorts of foods that don't require processing (or even cooking) to eat (though I cook food, of course, for taste). That diet would include fruits, nuts, vegetables, and meat. But it would not include nearly as much in the way of processed dairy products (milk, cheese, and butter) or grains. Perhaps those with a tradition over thousands of years of eating dairy, such as northern Europeans, are better adapted to dairy products it than others.

We are so dependant on grain products that we fail to see that some people's biochemistry doesn't take all that high-density carbohydrate that well. It messes up their blood sugar and they gain weight unnecessarily.

Thus, a diet with lots of low-density carbohydrates (fruits, vegetables, and nuts), and reasonably amounts of protein (meat), and the fat that comes with it, is probably what we are most suited to, especially if we keep the activitiy level up. It's the diet that I think is most consistent with the principle of eating to be healthy, exercising to be fit, and throwing the scales in the trash.

Consequently, take the food pyramid and remove the bottom (bread) layer. Add to the other layers as necessary to provide the right amount of calories. It's still a diet with more carbohydrate than anything else, but it has a balance of meat and naturally occurring fat. It has enough carbohydrate to avoid protein ketosis (which, as has been stated, is bad for the kidneys).

Most of the low-fat diets have been developed by people who naturally digest high-density carbohydrate well, which is why they are skinny enough to think they know how to be skinny. They recommend small amounts of meat (and their, um, beef with meat is the high fat content of most of it), large amounts of carbohydrate, mostly of the high-density starch and grain kind (pasta, low-fat bread, cereals, potatos, and other stuff that really can't be eaten raw). Those who don't digest carbohydrate well will not succeed with that diet in the long run--it just leaves you too hungry all the time.

So, the best meals are those that include a portion of meat, and lots of fruits and vegetables, just like our grandmothers told us.

Of course, no diet but starvation works without exercise. And starvation is not eating to be healthy.

Rick "who avoids potatos but who is still a sucker for bread" Denney
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Post by Joe Baker »

Rick, I think you're on to something (yeah, big surprise...genius... ;) ). The eating plan that's worked for me reverses the bottom two layers of the food pyramid, emphasizing fruits & vegetables and de-emphasizing breads & cereals. It's enough breads & cereals to keep me happy, but my blood sugar doesn't jump around like a hyperactive chihuahua.
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Post by Chuck(G) »

The very odd thing is that most folks have worse nutritional practices than 50 years ago, even though there's vastly more fresh fruit and vegetables availble the year round. I suspect that the obesity epidemic has more to do with large portions and limited physical activity than with the actual content of a meal.

Surely some on this forum can remember what winter meals used to be like. Vegetables that couldn't be preserved in cold storage like potatoes were canned. When I'm shopping and see the canned green(?) beans I ask myself who would want to eat such stuff, when one can always get at least the frozen variety.

I remember recently hearing about a study of the diet of large apes being revised. It turns out that they're vegetarian only as a luxury. Where they have to compete for food, they add meat to their diet.
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Post by Rick Denney »

Chuck(G) wrote:When I'm shopping and see the canned green(?) beans I ask myself who would want to eat such stuff, when one can always get at least the frozen variety.
We keep canned vegetables for emergency use. They aren't as nutritious as frozen or fresh vegetables, but they are a heck of a lot better than fries and potato chips, don't you think?

Rick "who avoids potato products, but who can't seem to escape bread" Denney
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Post by Chuck(G) »

Rick Denney wrote:We keep canned vegetables for emergency use. They aren't as nutritious as frozen or fresh vegetables, but they are a heck of a lot better than fries and potato chips, don't you think?

Rick "who avoids potato products, but who can't seem to escape bread" Denney
Well, there you go. :) I'd never realized that canned french fries were available. I've heard of Pringles, but I wouldn't dignify that stuff with the appellation "potato chip".

OTOH, I do keep plenty of canned tomatoes on hand. They're very useful in cooking.
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Post by Rick Denney »

Chuck(G) wrote:I'd never realized that canned french fries were available. I've heard of Pringles, but I wouldn't dignify that stuff with the appellation "potato chip".
Of course they are. I always called them shoe-string potatos.

But I was thinking that the older convenience of canned vegetables (when fresh wasn't available and refrigeration difficult and unreliable) had been replaced with the modern convenience of fresh French fries from McDonalds and bagged potato chips.

We have good "real" potato chips around here, close as we are to the source (Pennsylvania). Route 11 is my favorite brand. They are thick cut and fried in peanut oil (high in monounsaturated fat--very little saturated fat and no transfats and will promote good cholesterol rather than the bad stuff). But I eat them ony very rarely.

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Post by Chuck(G) »

Rick Denney wrote:Of course they are. I always called them shoe-string potatos.
Is that a Dan Quayle-ism? :)

Grandma used to can (as in boil in a glass jar) milk. It changed the flavor and color some, but it would do in a pinch. I've even heard of folks canning eggs. A local fellow here almost killed himself with home-made canned vension stew (botulism).

But if I were going to stash some emergency supplies, green beans (and creamed corn, for that matter) wouldn't be among the candidates. Soups, stews, chickpeas, olives, mushrooms, broth, tomatoes, sauces,peppers and fruit and juices. But not green beans or creamed corn--and certainly not shoestring potatoes.

Anent the decline in canned veggies, there was a survey done by Bon Appetit recently that shows that spinach is making its way to the top o' the list of favorite vegetables:

http://www.sltrib.com/food/ci_2655507

This ain't Popeye's canned msucle-builder, but primarily fresh spinach. Great stuff, you can use it in cooking or in salads.
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Post by Rick Denney »

Chuck(G) wrote:Anent the decline in canned veggies, there was a survey done by Bon Appetit recently that shows that spinach is making its way to the top o' the list of favorite vegetables:

http://www.sltrib.com/food/ci_2655507

This ain't Popeye's canned msucle-builder, but primarily fresh spinach. Great stuff, you can use it in cooking or in salads.
Oh, I always eat my spinach. It's too easy to buy fresh (which green beans are not, at least around here). I stir-fry it in a small amount of olive oil, throwing in slivered fresh onion right at the last minute.

You won't find any canned corn of any kind in our house. Corn is a grain, after all. The only corn I'll eat are either fresh ears (and some here are so fresh and sweet at the end of June you can't resist them), or in the form of corn tortillas.

There's pasole (corn hominy in chile sauce), but you have to be Albuquerque to get that done right.

Most of our canned goods are also soups and stews, actually. And beans (as in legumes, not green beans) of various sorts.

Rick "a big fan of Popeye" Denney
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