Cimbasso mouthpiece questions

[roweenie]

I've got the following questions for you cimbasso players:

1 - generally speaking, is there a "standard" mouthpiece shank/receiver size?

2 - is the lead pipe situation similar to that of a tuba (long and tapered), or is it generally something different?

3 - what kind of mouthpiece (tuba, bass trombone, contrabass trombone, etc.) works best?

Thanks!

[roweenie]

All right then.....

I'll add a 4th question:

4 - are there any advantages/disadvantages regarding receiver size and lead pipe configuration?

[Jay Bertolet]

What I can tell you about my own journey is that I went into the decision bound and determined not to make the common mistake of making my cimbasso sound like some kind of tuba. So many players choose mouthpieces exactly like their tuba mouthpieces and end up sounding not much different. I purposely chose a cimbasso specific mouthpiece (thanks Doug Elliott!) and started learning how to play the horn. After a few years, I started experimenting with other mouthpieces and the Laskey 30F that I use on my Willson Eb turned out to be an amazing match for my cimbasso (M-W 5 valve Eb). I switched to that mouthpiece and haven't looked back.

Looking back, I would say that my experience taught me that learning how to play the horn was just as important as picking the right equipment. I would also say that my choice may have been influenced by the repertoire I'm playing (mostly Puccini and Verdi operas with a really great trombone section). We're playing Norma this season and I've been considering going back to the smaller mouthpiece for that because I imagine it might be a better fit. We'll see.

The best advice I can offer is similar to the advice I give to those looking for an instrument: Try everything with an open mind and pick what sounds best. Good luck.

[roweenie]

Jay,

Thanks for that detailed advice. You hit the nail right on the head when you said you were determined not to make your cimbasso sound like a tuba. Afterall, it is supposed to sound like a trombone, right?

Does your cimbasso take a tuba shank mouthpiece?

(As an interesting side-note, one of the largest Internet instrument dealers claims that the G&P cimbasso is the most "tuba-like" of the several badges they sell. I'm wondering what's in its design that makes this so).

[Jay Bertolet]

My cimbasso does take a standard tuba shank mouthpiece. The Laskey 30F uses a euro shank and I find that it fits in my cimbasso receiver quite well. I'm not familiar with the G&P cimbasso. When I bought mine, the M-W was considered to be one of the most tuba player friendly of the bunch. The Rudy Meinl I played wasn't my cup of tea, even though I really like their tubas. My fear with the M-W was that it would quickly sound too much like a tuba. That's what I meant about learning how to play the horn. Once you understand what to do, choosing mouthpieces becomes easier because you have more options. When I started with mine, it's a good thing I had a smaller mouthpiece. I think that helped cement the right sound in my head (non-tuba sound) from the beginning. When I switched to a larger mouthpiece, I was still able to carry the trombone sound along with the package. That helped a lot.

[PaulMaybery]

I've enjoyed reading the comments before mine. I always seem to glean something from both Bloke and Jay. Thanks. I went through an adventure of mouthpieces to try to narrow down what I feel works best for me. I noticed a big difference to what I was feeling and hearing in practice at home (even with our 13 foot ceilings in the large room) from what seemed to be happening in the concert halls and in the last row of an orchestra. (and with 3 trombones on my right. I kept vacillating from solo sizes to the larger Hellebergs and some Bachs thrown in as well. What seems to work best for me after all the fuss is the solo size and I happen to be using the Monette 94F at the moment. I also had good results with other solo pieces such as the G&W Tephra and the Wedge Solo. Though there are times when I am still not sure of what I am hearing, and the Monette 94 seems to also work but with considerably more depth to the sound. Since I do play Bass Trombone, I've never really fell into getting a tubby sound from the Cimbasso. After 2 years with it now, the concept and feel is becoming much more natural. That is basically in the breath control department.

Regarding old vintage MPs, I tried an old Conn Giant, Conn Standard, and a York Eb. These all needed an adaptor, but to be honest I rather liked the feel of the smaller cup.
A more gentle and lyric quality, But I am not sure if in the orchestra it could support the trombones.

So after the smoke all clears, I would tend to go with the Solo size MP with a not too large throat. That is where I prefer the Monette 94F over the G&W Tephra. My thoughts are that the larger throat is where we get into problems with tubbiness.

[roweenie]

Thanks all for the excellent information on mouthpieces. When I reach that point, I will be sure to weigh it all carefully.

From a construction point of view, what (if any) characteristics (bore size, percentage of cylindrical tubing, type of leadpipe, etc.) make a cimbasso more "trombone-like" as opposed to "tuba-like"?

[quesonegro]

I play a G&W that is basically a CB trombone size rim on a tuba cup and backbone/shank, based on their Churada.
It works really great for me and gives me just what I want...

[quesonegro]

As far as the G & P cimbasso goes, I think it's unfair to call it "tuba like", it's very different from my Haag, or a Lätzsch, bigger and with a different resistance/feel, but once you get used to it, and with the right mouthpiece it's a great horn! I'd love to have one, it's definitely on my wish list!!

(I've only played the piston version, they now make a cylindrical valve version as well)

[roweenie]

As far as the G & P cimbasso goes, I think it's unfair to call it "tuba like"

Not my words, I've never played one.

http://www.hornguys.com/collections/cim ... f-cimbasso" target="_blank

[tubamuphone]

I'm playing on a Meinl-Weston cimbasso in F. I also have a Frankenstein cimbasso (high .600s bore 5-rotors, marching baritone bell), both respond very well to a Thein MCL. It's a contrabass trombone mouthpiece, probably too small for many, but my goal is to sound like a bass bone on steroids. FWIW, I've used a Schilke 60 on both instruments, I prefer that to pretty much any tuba mouthpiece I've tried. It's no comparison to the Thein though, that's what works for me. Doug Elliott and G&W have some great options out there as well at a considerably cheaper price.

I have played trombone for almost as long as I've played tuba and that certainly helps. As others have said, learning how to play the instrument is much more important than finding the perfect piece. It blows very differently than a tuba....

Jeff

[roweenie]

As others have said, learning how to play the instrument is much more important than finding the perfect piece. It blows very differently than a tuba....

Jeff

Yes, the term "garden hose" comes to mind....

[Bob Kolada]

I also have a Frankenstein cimbasso (high .600s bore 5-rotors, marching baritone bell), both respond very well to a Thein MCL. It's a contrabass trombone mouthpiece, probably too small for many, but my goal is to sound like a bass bone on steroids.

Got a picture of that? Sounds neat!

[pjv]

For the bass trombone most players use a mpc with a deep cup to get the right sound. Why is it that most cimbasso players go for a shallow mpc?

[Mark]

For the bass trombone most players use a mpc with a deep cup to get the right sound. Why is it that most cimbasso players go for a shallow mpc?

A shallow tuba mouthpiece will probably be deeper than a deep bass trombone mouthpiece.

[tubamuphone]

Here's a side view, custom built by Eric Swanson (repair guru in the D/FW area and bass trombonist in the Dallas Opera). It's a fun little horn, it has a much smaller footprint (easier to travel with and store) than the Meinl Weston that I use.

Jeff

[Doug Elliott]

For the bass trombone most players use a mpc with a deep cup to get the right sound. Why is it that most cimbasso players go for a shallow mpc?

A shallow tuba mouthpiece will probably be deeper than a deep bass trombone mouthpiece.

Actually no, shallow tuba mouthpieces are not deeper than what most symphony bass trombonists play.
But tuba mouthpieces are quite a bit wider, so the cup volume difference is substantial between equivalent depths.

Cimbassos just don't play well with mouthpieces that are too deep or have too much cup volume. Just like bass trumpets, which are a basically similar cylindrical design of instrument, the mouthpiece needs to be have less cup volume or it loses its sound and response.

I don't have any first-hand experience playing one, but I know what people seem to like on them.

[pjv]

Thanks for the useful insight, Mr. Elliot.

[Sidanas]

You can have a look at Bruno Tilz mpc's, they make mouthpieces designed for cimbasso. There are 5 different models you can choose, all of them are bigger than a contrabone mpc and have an internal diameter which is similar to tuba mpc, especially the 400-4 CB and 400-5 CB. The depth of the cups varies from shallow to deep and the backbores from around 7,7 to 8,5.
I ordered the 400 CB-4 for my Bb kalison cimbasso, hope it will work

[PaulMaybery]

After all the fuss, and vacilating back and for between full sized tuba mps and the smaller solo versions, I find I can not make up my mind, and it has so much to do with the situation.
I've recently played some solos in churches, both small and huge. I find the Helleberg size/style gave me the most flexibilty for intonation and tone colors. Sure the deeper piece gives a heavier sound, or it can at least go in that direction if need be. I felt I could easily color the sound with the larger piece but felt limited or constrained with the smaller variety.
While a larger piece can make it a have a bit more depth of sound, I do not really feel the sound would ever be mistaken for a tuba. I think one really needs to just go with what is comfortable and gives you some choices. OR, simply just change to what you need. Different tools for different jobs. I've stopped obsessing on finding the perfect cimbasso mp.