Marzan's Copper Sander CC Tuba Back on the Market

[The Big Ben]

Is this horn copper or copper-plated brass?

[ValveSmoke]

I don't know the metallurgy. It has always been presented as a "copper" horn from the time I purchased it from the Marzan estate. My suspicion is that it cannot be pure copper as I think that it would be too soft a metal to hold shape. I suspect that it is brass with a higher than usual copper content (sort of like a red brass bell on a trumpet or trombone), and then lacquered to boot.

[ValveSmoke]

Following up on the request for a photo with the upright bell...this has now been added to the eBay post...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sander-CC-4-Val ... 1712692657" target="_blank?

[Donn]

My suspicion is that it cannot be pure copper as I think that it would be too soft a metal to hold shape. I suspect that it is brass with a higher than usual copper content (sort of like a red brass bell on a trumpet or trombone), and then lacquered to boot.

Beyond red brass, some trombones get copper bells - Conn calls that Coprion, on my Reynolds it's Bronz-o-lyte but (as this was their bass trombone) with much more copper than the bronze alloy they used in smaller trombones. 100%? Can't say that for sure, but far more than just red brass. Has held up OK for half a century.

[jeopardymaster]

Below is my then-current assessment from April 12, 2007 (posted on tubenet at the time), when I played it at the Buddy Rogers' warehouse in Cincinnati. Two caveats -- 1) I am not a metallurgist, but in retrospect I have to believe that the metal is a high-copper-content alloy - the point to my observation at the time was that it was not merely copper-plated. 2) As I recall inferring from my inspection, but do not quite read in the following, is that Fred had a new pipe built for the 4th valve tube to give him a "modern" 4th valve. What I can't remember is whether it was a complete tube or a kind of sleeve that the original pipe could be inserted into. Maybe the current owner can speak to that. At any rate, one would have the option to play the horn with the original 2-3 length or as a 1-3. My recollection remains that the horn would not be a great choice as one's main orchestral horn, but really fine for solo or quintet, assuming one could solve the intonation problems.

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"I just checked it out, an hour ago. It does remind me of a King a bit, in terms of feel and heft, for lack of a better word. I played it on a Wick 3L and a Kellyberg. Surprisingly bright sound. I hadn't expected that. Low G and F and thereabouts were very free and open. Overtone series generally very good, but the 4th space g was rather sharp. The problem really jumped out when I played the famous Mahler 1 passage - the distance between e and f was noticeably w i d e - whether e was played open or 12. Marked sharpness of 6th partial is the biggest downside, IMO.

Generally the notes in bass clef staff were a little bit harder to grip than I am accustomed to. High range was very bright, even brilliant, with good intonation. In upper register it feels almost like a fine Eb. That to me is the best feature of the horn - it is very free-blowing both high and low. To a degree I would have to call extremely rare.

Valves are still original linkage with string action and need some attention - they are a bit gummy - but nothing major. The finish of the body has some minor scratches, but no dents I noticed. The bell was refinished - color is different and no scratches apparent. 4th valve tube was lengthened from 2 to 2 1/2 whole steps using brass. Original copper 4V tube was in the case.

It is clear to me the horn is solid copper, not just plated. The trim appeared to me to be what one would expect for a Sander, and in really good shape.

I didn't try or look at the recording bell.

This is the 3rd Sander I have ever tried, and definitely the smallest of the 3 - the others being Sam Green's primary (5 valve) instrument and his backup - the one that went through Dave Borzvold and Dave Freedy some years back. It is in the best shape of the 3. Intonation is better than Sam's backup, maybe not quite as good as his primary horn. I would not consider it a good candidate for orchestra work any heavier than, say, Verdi, but very good for solo and quintet.

And it is a beauty to look at."

[ValveSmoke]

Thank you for the notes. In regards to your comment <<<What I can't remember is whether it was a complete tube or a kind of sleeve that the original pipe could be inserted into. Maybe the current owner can speak to that. >>> the horn does have two separate slides, a shorter copper version that is pretty clearly the original that came with the horn, and a longer brass version. I've only used the brass version. They are not designed to work together as a sleeve, but can only be used separately.

[Tom Coffey]

It will be interesting to see if the buyer is a member of this board. That is one of the very few horns to earn the title of "unique."