CC, BBb, or EEb?

[pineapple-power]

I'm saving up to buy a Miraphone tuba.

I'm hoping for one that will get me through high school and college (perhaps beyond). With that in mind, which type should I buy: CC, BBb, or EEb?

Also, how big of an impact does the finish make on the sound? I'm partial to silver / nickel coated tubas, but if it affects my sound too much I won't go for it.

Thank you for reading this far, and answering should you be so kind to.

[pecktime]

I don't know about orchestral music, but for jazz any key can work.

Bob Stewart and Sam Pilafian play CC.

[ghmerrill]

I don't think Miraphone makes an EEb tuba, ...

Well, according to them they make five different EEb models: http://www.miraphone.de/en/products/tuba_.html.

[ghmerrill]

Yeah. However much a purist in terms of the EEb/Eb history/theory controversy wants to insist on that particular meaning and that no one now makes EEb tubas, the common meaning (employed by players and manufacturers alike) has drifted to a new "standard" -- unlike Clinton's case where he just wanted to change the meaning for his own convenience.

As a formal language theorist, I don't particularly like this feature of natural language, but over many decades have come to concede that we have to live with it. So in fact a number of manufacturers now make EEb tubas (and yet, in the old sense, they don't).

That likely has no consequence here since "EEb" is probably not a reasonable answer to the OP's original question, despite my own inclination in that direction. But there's no point in needlessly confusing an innocent soul who asks such a question.

[hduong]

If you're still in high school, a BBb will do just fine. Once you start taking lessons in college with your tuba instructor consult them on what horns to look at.

[eupher61]

It makes absolutely no difference in the long run. Germans start students on F. British on Eb. I own BBb, Eb, and F.I am well able to play CC. I've played all of them in jazz, bands, quintets, orchestra (well, not the Eb in quintet or orchestra, the specific instrument isn't that good, but I'd be comfortable doing so). I also play and play euphonium, baritone, and trombone.
In the long run, it makes no difference.
Finish makes no difference at all, except for personal preference and rarely, allergenic situations.
Some teachers will say you MUST have something specific. To me, that is horse hockey.
And, it's always nice to have someone set up this discussion. I love seeing statements that some setting requires a specific tuba. Idiocy.

[eupher61]

Trolls are fun, too.

[swillafew]

KiltieTuba wrote:
I don't think Miraphone makes an EEb tuba, ...

http://www.baadsvik.com/category/news/

A certain soloist plays everything on a Miraphone Eb.

Buy whatever you like.

[Michael Bush]

[EMC]

All of them :p

[GC]

Okay, I'll bite (or maybe shoot myself in the foot). Kiltie owns, or owned, an old tuba that was pitched an octave below common Eb tubas. He and others had opinions about whether that horn should be called EEb or EEEb. There was a thread here a while back where the assertion was made that Eb tubas were the standard notation for the common bass tubas in that key, and that EEb was a term for larger, 4-valve versions of the Eb bass tuba. I'm thinking that this was referred to as a practice originating in Britain.

So, if Kiltie is referring to EEb as the contrabass or subcontrabass horn that he had, his assertion is correct. Very few were made, and they're mostly in museums. I doubt that he would say that there were few EEb horns made in the other sense.

[finnbogi]

I have always thought of the "pitch letters" (for want of a better word) as reference to the first overtone (second harmonic), in which case a standard E flat bass tuba should be referred to as "Eb", a C tuba as "C" and a B flat tuba as "BBb". A "Bb" tuba would then be a euphonium and the French C tubas would be considered "c" tubas. This system would at least make sense from the names of the octaves.

Having said that, I prefer using single letters (F, E flat, C, B flat) - the meaning should be obvious from the context.

[pineapple-power]

a couple of buttloads of cash (something like ~64 gallons of cash or so).

I had no idea buttloads were measured in gallons. I thought it was liters?

It makes absolutely no difference in the long run. Germans start students on F. British on Eb. I own BBb, Eb, and F.I am well able to play CC. I've played all of them in jazz, bands, quintets, orchestra (well, not the Eb in quintet or orchestra, the specific instrument isn't that good, but I'd be comfortable doing so). I also play and play euphonium, baritone, and trombone.
In the long run, it makes no difference.
Finish makes no difference at all, except for personal preference and rarely, allergenic situations.
Some teachers will say you MUST have something specific. To me, that is horse hockey.

Thank you for clearing that up. I was and am kind of wary of people who say "Only this type of tuba works" because why would there be other ones?
I naturally play very deeply, and I've heard F tubas don't do well on lower notes, which is why I didn't put them in the running. If I was mistaken, I apologize to F enthusiasts everywhere.
That said, I asked the question because I figured there might be some advantage from one type or the other. If I (again) was mistaken, I'll just buy the one I can.

And, it's always nice to have someone set up this discussion. I love seeing statements that some setting requires a specific tuba. Idiocy.

pineapple-power: Setting up discussions with high chance of debate since 2001.

[balchb]

I bought a Miraphone 186 BBb with a major third 5th valve my Junior year of high school. I liked it at the time. I felt it was somewhat limiting the longer I played. That particular instrument had a very challenging upper register that was difficult to pinpoint/slot.

I think a 4/4 CC is perhaps the most versatile instrument for most situations. If you end up doing some heavy solo work, then you'll need an Eb or F. I love my new CC and wish I would have started with this earlier. It blends great with a large brass ensemble, sounds fantastic in a quintet and I'm tackling some solo work for my band's chamber concerts. The color of sound is brighter and less tubby than a BBb. This particular CC I bought last year has a great upper register.

[TubaZac2012]

I've been holding off, but I really want to take a swing at this. If you want a TRUE do it all tuba you'd be crazy not to go with a good 5 valve Eb of some kind. I've only played a couple Ebs in my nine years of playing the tuba(I don't get out much.), but the Ebs I have played have had a gorgeous sound. Like some one has already mentioned Oystein Baadsvik plays Eb and sounds glorious. I would suggest playing all three, but if I were in your shoes I'd go with a nice Eb.

[Donn]

Thank you for clearing that up. I was and am kind of wary of people who say "Only this type of tuba works" because why would there be other ones?

Well, why indeed. We are teetering on the brink of enlightenment here. One more step, and you may transcend Tubenet.

[Donn]

We don't call a four valve "F" tuba an "FF" tuba because that makes no sense.

But we do call a C tuba "CC", and finnbogi's right, it's wrong.

I don't like it - it's just silly to say large Eb tubas are "EEb", because that should mean there's an octave involved and there isn't. But what you have to do, to change this, is make your real EEb tuba matter. As you say, it isn't going to be called an EEEb tuba, so if we're always looking over our shoulders because Ian might show up with his real EEb, then we'll likely stop calling Eb tubas EEb. Appeals to sense won't make any difference, if we aren't willing to tackle CC at the same time.

[GC]

Again, you can call instruments whatever you want, but there is a history behind the terms and nomenclature. Put it this way, as the EEb tends to be referenced toward the compensated system, does a standard ~18 ft long BBb tuba become a BBBb tuba with the addition of a fourth valve in a compensated system?

No. It doesn't.

Why?

What sense does that make?

Why add an additional letter? Marketing... you can charge people more with more letters. Just look at the auto industry - more letters on a car generally coincide with a higher price tag.

Make sense? I don't think that's really a requirement around here.

Seriously, there's no legit reason to call Eb bass tubas EEb. If it has a 4th valve and is larger than the average Eb, just call it a big 4-valve Eb. And if it's an FF tuba, it must be really loud, right?

[ghmerrill]

What sense does that make?

What sense does it make for people to use the term 'swedge' rather than the correct term 'swage'? Yet probably 99% of brass repair techs use 'swedge' and probably don't even know that it's a perversion of 'swage'. And most general machinists won't recognize 'swedge' as a real word. You can do the research on this yourself on the interweb -- if you haven't happened to grow up in the 'swage' tradition (general metalworking, gunsmithing, etc.).

But the brass repair community happily accepts the linguistic drift to 'swedge'. So why get your linguistic panties in a wad about Eb vs. EEb? These things only make a difference if you're trying to draw very careful technical and precise distinctions for some particular purpose. Otherwise, what sense does it make to try to enforce such a technical distinction in the face of common practice that's inconsistent with it?

Personally, I can go with either Eb or EEb for the typical 3+1 Brit horns or Brit or German or American 5-valve (or even 4-valve) non-compensating horns. But if it's a relatively small bore 3-valve horn (like my Buescher), I refer to it as an Eb instrument since it doesn't have the low register capabilities that those other horns do. It's a practical distinction and not a technical one -- and it's the distinction that most people make who aren't grinding some academic or pedantic axe. It's the same if someone refers to a 'Bb' tuba. Virtually no one would take this to be a reference to a euphonium. Or a Bb tenor sax vs. a Bb bass sax, or an Eb alto sax vs. an Eb baritone sax. This isn't about some fundamental intrinsic meaning in our language. It's about linguistic conventions -- and those shift a lot over time.

(I do confess that whenever people say 'swedge' it makes my teeth hurt -- probably as much as hearing 'EEb' applied to certain instruments makes other people's teeth hurt. But I've come to live with it.)

[balchb]

A great question gone completely off-topic. Who cares about how many letters they post... I'm pretty sure we all know we're talking about the standard BBb, CC, Eb and F tubas currently sold in the mainstream market. Let's focus on helping the OP.

I vote CC or BBb - 4/4 with a 5th valve.