The Sousaphone's direct ancestors

Dave Detwiler · Post by **Dave Detwiler** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:29 pm

Hi all - after spending the past few years exploring the early history of the Sousaphone, I'm now beginning to learn more about the Sousaphone's direct ancestors.

Here's the link to my blog post to get the ball rolling: http://tubapastor.blogspot.com/2015/12/ ... stors.html

But feel free to chime in (here or at my blog) with things you know about such horns as the cornu, saxtuba, and helicon. And are there other ancestors to the Sousaphone that I'm missing?

And here's one of my favorite finds from my research - the very first Sousaphone may very well have been patterned after this massive helicon:

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:54 pm

Great stuff! Those helicons look huge. Keep up the terrific research.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:23 am

Fascinating - thank you for sharing!

I must say having just got a helicon, I like better than sousaphone. More comfortable to balance without a bell above ones head. Not to say Wessex is going to make them - I am not convinced there much of a market for helicons today...

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:12 am

Neptune wrote: Not to say Wessex is going to make them - I am not convinced there much of a market for helicons today...

I bet you'd sell more of 'em than ophicleides (and not that I'm ragging on you for making those! I'm glad someone's offering "out of the way" instruments!).

Dave Detwiler · Post by **Dave Detwiler** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:05 am

Neptune wrote:I must say having just got a helicon, I like better than sousaphone. More comfortable to balance without a bell above ones head...

That's exactly why you shouldn't try this with a Sousaphone! . . .

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:09 am

Nice photo!

From old photos I have seen Helicon seem to have been common in military bands (in UK as well as USA) before WW1.

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:17 am

Neptune wrote:More comfortable to balance without a bell above ones head.

Absolutely - but I also find that with one less bend than a sousaphone you get a bigger sound / faster response / less intonation issues and a horn that just plays more like a tuba. Although, like tubas, there is a lot of variance in how well or bad any one model plays.

I prefer mine for jazz. I regularly play an excellent 1931 King 1250 Sousie and own a really fine 36K sousie so I have some basis for comparison.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:49 am

I had a couple helicons, and my sousaphone had all the advantages. Most of it was that the helicons were Eb and F, and the sousaphone is BBb. Much of the rest is that the sousaphone is a 40K - big sound? √check; good response? √check; good intonation? √check. A good tuba is a good tuba, and that can happen in the sousaphone configuration. I guess characteristically they have smaller bell flares, which makes for some tonal difference - some of which are only the perception of the player, who gets a less distorted perspective on the sound with a helicon thanks to a different ear-vs.-bell position.

Between the two, the Amati F was the one that I could carry while using both hands for something else, because it wasn't round. The Eb - like the ones on horseback in the picture - was round, and as soon as I let go of it, it would slide down. Also I think an F could be made short enough at the bell that you'd be less likely to mow down passers-by on your left, though this wasn't the case with mine, and I did.

The Czech designs don't have the sousaphone's Dr Seuss compound leadpipe, which might have a salutary effect on the sound, but also of course makes them less ergonomically flexible.

They were awkward to transport too, where the sousaphone is almost a travel tuba.

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:32 am

My Amati BBb helicon is extremely ergo- friendly. The bell is short, do the sound his my eats like a concert tuba. The F Cerveny I had was an amazing instrument after Dan Schultz worked on it. If not for the fact that I could hardly hold it and play, Id have it still. It was a sweet playing helicon.

The BBb is far better than any souzie I've played .The fact that it's much closer to bore of the tubas (doesn't Cerveny use the same parts for both)mashes a lot of difference

David Richoux · Post by **David Richoux** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:52 am

Helicons are very popular in Europe with Balkan Brass Bands, and they would also go well with the new surge of "Street Bands" that are spreading around the world - check http://honkfest.org" target="_blank if you don't believe there is such a thing! The bands mostly use cheap used Sousaphones, but I have seen several helicons over the years I have been involved with this movement.

BBb and F seem to be the most popular, and I bet Wessex could compete with some of the Central European horn makers. Not a huge market, but enough to be worthwhile.

bisontuba · Post by **bisontuba** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:35 am

Hi-
If a modern day helicon was made from a modern day sousaphone with a detachable bell, without killing the intonation:

To

( without 'cloning Dan')

4 valve version, it just might be a seller....

Mark

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:57 am

bisontuba wrote: ( without 'cloning Dan')

Though if you could clone Dan, that would sure sweeten the deal.

David Richoux · Post by **David Richoux** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:23 pm

Dave Detwiler wrote:
Neptune wrote:I must say having just got a helicon, I like better than sousaphone. More comfortable to balance without a bell above ones head...
That's exactly why you shouldn't try this with a Sousaphone! . . .

1922 (October) C. G. Conn's Musical Truth (vol. 11, no. 31) - Copy.jpg

That photo sure looks like inspiration for a Far Side cartoon!

Three Valves · Post by **Three Valves** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:18 am

Neptune wrote:Fascinating - thank you for sharing!

I must say having just got a helicon, I like better than sousaphone. More comfortable to balance without a bell above ones head. Not to say Wessex is going to make them - I am not convinced there much of a market for helicons today...

I trust you've been to a TC here in the USA??

Everyone drools over them!!

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:26 am

I was testing the water for interest

David Richoux · Post by **David Richoux** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:10 am

This helicon has a very impressive bell size! 28" makes this a Jumbo, I think.

image.jpeg

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:46 am

Mark Rubin playing a similar helicon

... from Frank London's web site. If I remember right, it's someone else's at this point.

David Richoux · Post by **David Richoux** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:18 pm

That picture (Rubin) looks like a standard size BBb helicon. The gooseneck is much smaller diameter than the one I posted.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:37 pm

The man in the picture is much smaller than Mark Rubin, I think that's a safe bet.

David Richoux · Post by **David Richoux** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:53 pm

Donn wrote:The man in the picture is much smaller than Mark Rubin, I think that's a safe bet.

That is true, I have met Mark in person. However, I think the other horn is larger.

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The Sousaphone's direct ancestors

The Sousaphone's direct ancestors

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