The double buzz

[Joemac]

I'm a bass player who plays trombone, that recently bought a tuba. Notice I didn't say plays tuba. I played and enjoyed it for 2 wonderfull days then developed a double buzz around what I think you might call the middle Bb. For all I know it was there all along and I was just so happy to be playing the thing I didn't notice. The more I try to correct it the more it spreads. I can't stand listening to myself. I'm sure some of you know it's quite frustrating. I know it's impossible to diagnose the cause of this dreaded disease over the Internet and I'm currently trying to locate a teacher but is this a common thing for people coming from a different brass instrument? Could it be that the mouthpiece is so much bigger than on trombone? anything I can try while I try to find a teacher?.... On a positive note, after my wife told me to "put down that big stinky horn and back away for a while" I picked up the trombone to make sure the problem hadn't spread there and to my delight it now feels easier to play than ever before. So at least I've got that. Any thoughts?

[swillafew]

Be patient, it's a big jump in the size of the cup. I go from tuba to trombone (secondary instrument) and the double buzz on trombone can happen when the needed muscles are too tired to hold a working position.

[Joemac]

Got a lesson on Tuesday. Hope it helps. I played for 2 min today and couldn't take it anymore.

[bort]

Tuba is a different air stream than with trombone as well. As a tuba player, when I pick up a trombone and try to blow it like a tuba, it backs up on me REAL quick.

[Three Valves]

There HAS to be a pill for this... an expensive one!!

[happyroman]

Arnold Jacobs said that a double buzz (or segmentation as he called it) was usually due to the embouchure not getting a sufficient supply of air. The tongue can easily get too high in the mouth and cut off the air stream, starving the lip. If you think about it, in repose, the tongue fills the entire oral cavity. If you allow it to stay high in the mouth, no air will get to the lip.

The tongue is easily controlled by using the low vowels, oh, ooh, and ahh (without actually vocalizing). Think of a singer singing those vowels with a voice that sounds like a tuba.

As an exercise, say OH and blow on the back of your hand. This is thick air. Then, say eee or kee and breathe in and out, noticing how the high tongue cuts off the air. Say kee and then blow on the back of your hand and see how little air you feel. This is thin air.

Use low vowels and thick air when you play on the tuba and the double buzz should be eliminated.

[Joemac]

Thanks Andy. I'll give it a shot for sure when I get home. Was also thinking of getting a Kelly clear mouthpiece so a teacher could see what I'm doing.

[PaulMaybery]

In my humble experiences, the double buzz would occur in coincidence with extreme embouchure fatigue. What is physically and anatomically happening, I have no real idea. Several days rest and recovery usually solved the problem. Many years ago I taught tuba at a large mid-western university. A handful students would have this problem during marching band season. It would occur usually around 2nd line Bb - an open note with relatively little resistance. Notes with longer tube lengths, hence a little more resistance and the note had a bit more chance to avoid the double buzz. My take was abusive playing and muscle exhaustion. While rest alleviated the problem, if there was not sufficient recovery time, it returned rather quickly almost like a virus. Of course in marching & pep band season there is often not a good opportunity for rehab. Hence the problem comes off as 'chronic.' For adult players who are not necessarily in a pep band environment, the tissue fatigue/exhaustion can still come from overplaying, which for adults whose chops are not in that great of shape may not take all that much. The older we get, muscle mass diminishes and that natural strength we had as kids is much less. We can also get into the wind support issues which have an indirect effect of lip fatigue. I would not be too discouraged, this is not a permanent problem.

[Joemac]

Thanks for the encouragement Paul. I'm quite frustrated. I tried lowering the tongue like was suggested but it's still there. I really thought that was gonna work. I just went out and tried 4 or 5 mouthpieces on a different tuba and it's still there. Some of the mouthpieces did feel easier to control, however. Especially the generic student model. Maybe rest. I haven't really been practicing tuba though, because I can't stand the sound. Maybe I'll just play and ignore it and hope it'll go away.

[Worth]

I experienced this after making the shift from Euphonium to Tuba. It happened somewhere around the upstream downstream shift (right around the same notes you describe and Paul discusses) as seen in the video posted by cktuba. It has largely disappeared as I've settled on one mouthpiece for some time now and developed my embouchure further, but it can sometimes still rear its head if I'm not careful, always around that same note. Lips can really get to flappin' inside Tuba mouthpieces. Just a note of encouragement to let you know you're not alone!

[tubasaz]

I had two notes very bad in middle register a very long time. It was a somekind of double-buzz. Every other note was completely okay. Also it took me a very long time to change from Wick 5 tuba mouthpiece to Wick 3. Now I can use also larger mouthpieces if needed. I dont know how I cured it but I did practise a lot long notes and avoiding too much pressure. (Just my case..).

[Pat S]

I'm prone to get a double buzz with bowl-shaped mouthpieces if I lay off of playing for too long. It's much less of a problem for me with funnel-shaped mouthpieces. Good luck!

[Joemac]

I practiced today for 30 min or so. I didn't focus on the problem this time. I went over some tunes and practiced like I was playing a gig. I just kept going and focused on breathing and having the breath to play strong. It seemed to help. It was a lot more fun that's for sure.... I think I'm going to try a different mouthpiece. I've got a Conn Helleburg. I may try something a little smaller. The smaller ones I tried felt a little better.

[Doug Elliott]

A little embouchure anatomy lesson:

In order to get a clean sound on any brass instrument, one lip needs to vibrate MORE and the other LESS. That's the whole basis of downstream vs upstream embouchures - downstream means the top lip extends farther into the mouthpiece and is more active, directing the air DOWN. In an upstream embouchure, the bottom lip extends farther out when blowing, and that directs the air UP. The difference between them is usually due to the mouthpiece placement being more on the top lip or more on the bottom lip. For the sake of consistent sound and response, it works best if the airstream stays the same direction (up or down) throughout the whole range. Some players do switch directions for different ranges, but I don't recommend it - the sound changes when the air direction switches, and the switch makes it problematic to play across the range where it changes.

The air direction switch point is also the usual cause of a double buzz. At the note range where it's trying to change direction, there's a little fight going on over which lip will predominate, and neither lip is winning. You just get an uncontrollable flutter. It happens for several reasons - fatigue (or insufficient muscle development in the first place), muscle injury from playing too loud, or a mouthpiece placement that is not sufficiently favoring either upstream or downstream. More air may help, but that's not the cause. A larger or smaller mouthpiece may help if it causes the placement to be slightly higher or lower. Most players have a limited distance between their chin and nose where a tuba mouthpiece can sit, and something like the super wide rim of a 24AW gives you very little choice about placement.

The solution partially depends on the cause. If it's fatigue, rest, and practice softer because loud makes it worse. If it's an injury, you need to seriously back off of playing for a while and definitely back off the volume for everything. Mouthpiece placement is really the biggest culprit. If you can place so that there's more definition toward either upstream or downstream, a double buzz is much less likely to happen.

This is the stuff that I teach - embouchure efficiency, and KNOWING how your face works, to prevent problems so you CAN forget about it and do the "Song and Wind" thing.

[PaulMaybery]

Very Helpful.

[Joemac]

A little embouchure anatomy lesson:



The solution partially depends on the cause. If it's fatigue, rest, and practice softer because loud makes it worse. If it's an injury, you need to seriously back off of playing for a while and definitely back off the volume for everything. Mouthpiece placement is really the biggest culprit. If you can place so that there's more definition toward either upstream or downstream, a double buzz is much less likely to happen.

This is the stuff that I teach - embouchure efficiency, and KNOWING how your face works, to prevent problems so you CAN forget about it and do the "Song and Wind" thing.

Doug this is where I think I need instruction. I've read about the things you are saying and I'm trying to find the right spot with the mouthpiece, trying to blow up, down, hard , soft and that leads to total frustration because it leads to 10 min of horrific noise and I have to walk away from the horn. Not sure how many bad noise sessions have left in me. At least yesterday I made a little music. Enough to want to give it another go today.... As far as injury or fatigue goes I'd be shocked if that were the problem.

[Worth]

Thanks Doug and Paul. Posts like this are what makes Tubenet such a vital resource for amateurs like myself. Generous advice from experts in their field, horns to drool over (and maybe add to your collection someday) and some inevitable entertaining drama. A place where its OK to sometimes be politically, or otherwise, incorrect. A place to interact and learn. Great forum!

A little embouchure anatomy lesson:

[ColeGAnderson]

I found that i developed a double buzz after moving from BBb to a CC tuba. Not sure why. Making an Oh shape with your mouth as if you were saying it really helped out. Not enough air was getting through before and It can also happen if you overblow as well. After a while now the double buzz has gone away and my tone has improved so this is definitely a good thing to try.

[happyroman]

I found that i developed a double buzz after moving from BBb to a CC tuba. Not sure why. Making an Oh shape with your mouth as if you were saying it really helped out. Not enough air was getting through before and It can also happen if you overblow as well. After a while now the double buzz has gone away and my tone has improved so this is definitely a good thing to try.

Just to be clear, when I recommended the OH vowel shape, that does not necessarily mean that the lips form an O shape.

Also, just to add to Doug;s excellent comments above, much of the information regarding the direction of the air stream is great to know, but (IMO) is often something that should be thought of as being allowed to occur.

The part of the brain that controls the muscle fibers in terms of retraction, protraction, elevation and depression, is not the conscious or thinking brain. Mr. Jacobs used the analogy of catching an object thrown to you. You do not control the specific muscles to complete the task because you cannot be aware of all of the muscles involved in the action. Instead, you went for the product, and simply caught the object without thinking. It was instinctive, and playing a brass instrument should be approached in the same way.

Mr. Jacobs sought to get his students to control the muscles of the embouchure by controlling the product. The ability to conceive what you want to sound like and strive to imitate that is a very powerful learning tool. Through trial and error, the muscles of the embouchure will find what they need to do as you strive to imitate the sound in your head. One of his favorite sayings was "Embouchure is not a study of meat, it is a study of sound. If you sound better than everybody else, they will copy what you do."

Now, obviously, there are certain parameters that need to be considered and evaluated. Your embouchure can't be completely off the wall different and still sound good. But, in general, he wanted his students to have the longest possible embouchure so that the vibrating surface of the lip wouyld be as long as possible, producing the most resonance possible. Think of the length of a string on a bass vs. a cello, or the width of a contrabasson reed vs. an oboe reed. In order to have the longest embouchure (for you) the embouchure should approach the half way point of the cup, or as close to 50-50 upper vs. lower lip in the cup. At a minimum, he wanted approx 1/3 - 2/3 lower to upper lip in the cup.

But, he never made fixed rules for mouthpiece placement and allowed movement as the register changed, as when he was shown how Mr. Donatelli was able to play the high G in Benvenuto Cellini. Mr. Donatelli broke a "rule" and moved closer to the bottom of the cup, shortening the embouchure and allowing him to play the high G. When Mr. Jacobs did the same thing, he could not only play the high G, but G above high G.