grrr... stuck bearing plates

[UDELBR]

Penetrating oil, some heat (but not enough to wreck the lacquer) and time.

[PaulMaybery]

Hi Mark.
I just sent you a rather sympathetic and detailed post and it disappeared. To summarize: I too had this issue with my 5 valved Wessex cimbasso. Continuous tapping or vibrations on the valve step and also on the back plate will eventually break through the crud. It's more about continuous vibrations rather than force.

The insides were cruddy with black build up. I could feel it with my fingers. The back bearing plates would not sit flush in place. I initially thought it was sloppy machining, but not the case.

A good cleaning. I used Brasso and degreased with mineral spirits then warm soapy water. A little light burnishing with 0000 steel wool and a good oiling.

That was 2 years ago and they have behaved perfectly since.

I'm happy that Jonathan as addressed this with the factory on a post from last week. It has been an ongoing problem.
The issue is what do we do in the meantime, as someone who lacks experience or patience could ruin an otherwise fine instrument.

You may have these out by the time you read this post, but others need to know they are not alone.

Best wishes Mark

PM

[PaulMaybery]

Mark
You are a wise man. Warranty is a rare thing these days.
Cheers.
BTW - Always enjoy your posts

PM

[ghmerrill]

If the WD-40 doesn't work (which wouldn't surprise me), try PB Blaster. Let it work in for a couple of days. Do your best not to taste it or breathe it. For small parts I often use a syringe to apply it seams and joints.

I have yet to discover something that was stuck because of corrosion or gunk that PB Blaster couldn't release. Tractor parts, log splitter, brass instruments, 1 1/2" nuts on rotary mower, tool parts, boat trailer fasteners, ...

[ghmerrill]

Good idea. As you can tell from my own list of applications, I usually apply it to things that don't have fine finish issues associated with them. Deep Creep or Kroil might work well too.

[pgym]

Skip the WD40 and PB. 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone.

You're welcome.

[Tom]

Skip the WD40 and PB. 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone.

You're welcome.

Won't the acetone strip lacquer? I know it is an ingredient in paint and lacquer strippers. Maybe without the Toluene mixed in it won't...I dunno, but I know acetone is a thinning agent.

Yes, I know it the Acetone -ATF mixture works well. I use it regularly but not on instruments.

[gwwilk]

Thanks!

Jonathan wrote me back, asked me to try some wd-40 as a penetrating oil, and if that didn't work, it would be covered under warranty if I had to take it to the shop.

An alternative lubricant would be that 'secret' lubricant of locksmiths, 'Houdini'. A fellow tubist in our community concert band had a problem with his fourth valve sticking down without any evidence of grit. I wondered it the spring was broken! The instrument repairman who plays in our band recommended giving WD-40 a try. One shot of 'Houdini' to the bearing after lightly lubricating all of the rotary valves on his Miraphone BBb was all it took to return the valve to normal.

You won't find this product in very many places outside of a locksmith's shop, hence the 'secret'. I used it a few months ago on some problem areas involving metal-on-metal friction and I've been amazed at the persistence of its lubricating effects. I used it for example on my 24 year old USPS mailbox lock that almost refused to let go of my key. It's now like new, too. My front storm door wouldn't spontaneously latch on closing because the catch wouldn't slide freely over the plate. One shot of 'Houdini' solved the problem, and it has yet to recur.

I learned of 'Houdini' last summer from this very same tubist who was astounded by what it could do around the house. He got it from his locksmith; I got mine on Amazon.

[bort]

Cough cough, pop in a new z-valve, cough cough...

[Wyvern]

pop in a new z-valve

The Prague has never been fitted with Z valves.

The tuba Mark has, was in our showroom for over a year and I guess gunk has built up over that period

[Wyvern]

Turns out the bearing plates are thick, the thickest I've ever seen.

That is interesting. I am currently at factory, so will check out. Wessex instrument repairer, Jim Langley is with me, so can make an evaluation.

I am sure if we find problem, production will amend back plate design. We have already found the cause of two quality issues this week while touring factory and they have been corrected.

Every 3-months I come here, quality improves. The polishing of the tubas is noticeably superior this time to what I have seen previously.

[Wyvern]

For reference, I can measure my cerveny back plates (which seem to be a normal thickness) to give you an idea what I mean

I should have got the micrometer out last night while I had the tuba apart

That would be useful, thank you

[cjk]

The Cerveny tubas I have owned had thinner back plates than other makes. I would not consider that a plus.

[Three Valves]

Whatever you do, DON'T use a pencil to gauge how true the valve part is!!

[Dan Schultz]

.... That would be useful, thank you

Jonathan... not my thread but I simply have to 'chime in here'. The biggest problem I've seen with ALL of the copies on the current market is failure to address simple things like how parts fit together and attention to tolerances. Lathe-cut bearing surfaces are next to impossible to make run free... especially when they depend on other parts to put them in the correct place. There is an obvious tolerance issue when back plates fit either too tightly or too loosely. The Chinese are perfectly capable of producing quality horns and parts but I wonder if the folks who are instructing them fully understand the root cause of some of these problems.

Being involved in manufacturing for many years and actually having been instrumental in setting up ISO for several companies... I KNOW that quality and price do not always go hand-in-hand. Is there such a thing as a geometric dimension and tolerance standards for the WESSEX products? It's not the sort of thing that marketing, engineering, and the consumer normally see eye-to-eye on.... or even understand for that matter.

[bisontuba]

Turns out the bearing plates are thick, the thickest I've ever seen.

That is interesting. I am currently at factory, so will check out. Wessex instrument repairer, Jim Langley is with me, so can make an evaluation.

I am sure if we find problem, production will amend back plate design. We have already found the cause of two quality issues this week while touring factory and they have been corrected.

Every 3-months I come here, quality improves. The polishing of the tubas is noticeably superior this time to what I have seen previously.

I too have noticed very thick bearing plates on a lot of J-B horns...
Mark

[Wyvern]

From what I have seen, parts are made on the most advanced computer controlled equipment, so I cannot see why would not be consistently the same? I am no engineer, but maybe the cutting head is just not changed frequently enough? What I do know is there is a real commitment from the current management to ever improve and make the highest standard of instruments, so will discuss, investigate and hopefully resolve.

[bisontuba]

From what I have seen, parts are made on the most advanced computer controlled equipment, so I cannot see why would not be consistently the same? I am no engineer, but maybe the cutting head is just not changed frequently enough? What I do know is there is a real commitment from the current management to ever improve and make the highest standard of instruments, so will discuss, investigate and hopefully resolve.

Good news!!

[Dan Schultz]

From what I have seen, parts are made on the most advanced computer controlled equipment, so I cannot see why would not be consistently the same? I am no engineer, but maybe the cutting head is just not changed frequently enough? What I do know is there is a real commitment from the current management to ever improve and make the highest standard of instruments, so will discuss, investigate and hopefully resolve.

The best equipment in The World will produce junk if the quality control is not designed into the tolerances. Obviously this thread is a direct result of trying to put parts that are too large in a hole that's too small. Someone needs to be kicking *** and taking names in the engineering department.

[Wyvern]

I can report that the production manager is on the case and I am sure will get sorted - He is very skilled engineer.

I agree the problem is usually human - someone cutting corners to make themselves less work.