the most effective teacher

[windshieldbug]

BUT the most effective teacher directs the student's attention to an area of the student's playing (rather than just a general "get better"). The aspects of playing and the order in which they are concentrated on comprise an effective teacher's approach to learning.

Active listening of excellent players and ensembles is necessary for a goal.

A good resource is needed for equipment acquisition appropriate to the student and the level of their playing/development.

Someone is needed for guidance when questions arise.

All of the things you mentioned should true in and of themselves.

[Tim Jackson]

I will rant in hopes of moving the writer into the 2nd page… so I can read more interesting stuff on playing and teaching!!! I admit - I actually know nothing about the tuba - I'm just making it up based on what I've read here over the tears I mean years. I play drums.

During the years, I’ve enjoyed reading all the tuba biz on this site, I always think how nice it would be if everyone stepped up the discussion on the finer points of playing and approach to the instrument. I do like reading about this or that horn/mouthpiece/recording. But I am so interested in mechanics… oh, one might say – “WHAT ABOUT THE MUSIC?”. Well the way I see it, bad mechanics stand is the way of making great music. So, why is it that most ideas that are brought forward here are used as target practice? Then I realize- everyone is on a different level of the journey and generally younger players are not ready to comprehend certain info the older guys might enjoy discussing… like “your lips don’t really buzz” . (ready, aim, fire) BTW once you figure that out your sound, range, freedom and beauty of sound will move to another level. I can say that during certain times of my tuba life I have practiced to the point of lip blow out embouchure dystonia and never got a blister on my lip from lips rubbing together. (ok I admit - Its not about buzz or not but it is about how you focus your energy/thoughts)

“The most effective teacher ( ) is the player themselves”. – yes, once the player has reached a high enough level of “playing maturity” to fly from the nest of years of miss-information. Since most tuba players limit or aim their musical and technical goals to the demands of the tuba parts they are trying to master a multitude of crappie habits seem to be accepted or excused as long as the tone is good. I have read with amusement the pros and cons of facial movement while playing the tuba. It looks like the player is chewing tobacco as he moves up and down the scales (OK if the tone is good but what happens on 32nds). How about shifts in the embouchure every 4th or 5th? Sure, if you practice enough you can master these bad habits and manage the tuba parts with good tone. Watch Adolph Herseth… watch his face… the corners… any major shifts going on there? Hmm… or the rest of the section for that matter. Oh Oh- corners (red light-danger) well-of course there’s only one way… (‘nother can of worms) I can say every student I’ve spent time with that had the patience to correct things – found much better extension of range. Range – don’t comment unless you’re already at 5.5 – If you’ve reached 5 or 6 octaves you probably ain’t smillin” ha ha. Imagine the control and confidence you would have playing Bydlo if you had 1 octave of head room. That’s why you work the extremes.
I do believe the most effective teacher is the player themselves… but give yourself a treat- find a hot dog to study with.

“ how something is supposed to sound (an extremely specific conceptual aural "stencil" to trace with those sounds that are actually being produced” YES! I like to play what I am hearing and continually move stuff out of my playing that is in the way. Bad valve/finger technique might be causing bumps in my slurs… or maybe the way I hold my embouchure as I move through the melody. A great teacher guides the younger player and acts as a spotter to move bad habits out of the way.

“One-on-one expert instruction is a wonderful luxury, but - as a practical matter “ yes but I think many of us are satisfied with utility level playing and sometimes the ego stands in the way of moving toward enjoying the benefits of have a personal coach/trainer.


"studying with a teacher with an extraordinary reputation" can be politically… “- well if there’s opportunities in your area for work. I don’t see much future in playing for $$ but getting in with good players does lead to work.. During the time I was in New Orleans, the competition on bass was so tight it was better to create a little playing session with a trumpet or sax/clarinet or even better a leader to break into the scene. One bassist I knew always hired a weak sub to protect his job.

For the occasional player that just wants to enjoy a little playing in community band, church, or local sym – you probably already have the tools you need. If you yearn to master an instrument – always study, have a coach, trainer, or teacher. A prize fighter has a coach/trainer throughout his career. The rewards are unbelievable! So I say again – if you want range – find someone with 6 octaves!!! If you want work - hang with someone that is working, if you want flexibility - find someone that can move!

P.S. the only reason I spend any time ranting on this subject is I know we have pros out there making part of their living teaching. Go support them~

[groovlow]

The most effective teacher ( ) is the player themselves

Thanks for the topic, I agree with the opening statement.

If a player isn't well-versed at listening to their own playing (in "real time"), it might be time to learn how

What kind of situations help us learn real time listening. Suzuki Method for tuba?
Dixieland? NOLA street bands? Any style etc? We all need to play without a page of instructions in our faces. Do you know how to harmonize a scale? If you do, I suggest finding a smaller group, any style, and learn how to play by ear. Learn to function as the bass of the group and learn the melodies too. If you don't know how to harmonize a scale get to work. Learn how to do this on as many instruments as possible. "Piano in your friend" R.R.

acute self-instruction, self-evaluation, and self-correction are constantly in place

As soon as you learn to play some tunes with your friends, you take care of all things you can make better. I know many of the great players have played long term gigs without reading. I believe this kind of playing develops big ears.

Teachers, hmm... if you can play with musicians better than you are you'll get to where you want to be...

Test time, once you can play. Go busking solo with your sousaphone.
Joe
Nashville

[bearphonium]

Jumping on Tim's bandwagon because I want to hear more from bloke on the subject...

**Amateur, hobbyist, almost 60, went 20 years without playing music, switched to tuba as an adult in my 50's**
Never had any "ear" or "aural skills" teaching in my PS experience (or college, for that matter)
Must have some bit of skill, for playing trombone in high school, french horn in college (wiht some skill) and switching to tuba as an adult.

At first, I took a couple of lessons, took the information from that, and just played. I have played with a New Horizons concert band, a rag-tag marching band, a non-auditioned community concert band and a tuba-euphonium ensemble. I play in mixed small groups that include tuba-bassoon duets, the JV quartet from the ensemble, a brass quintet that became a quartet, and a mixed holiday group of keyboard, recorder, accordion, bassoon, trumpet, trombone and tuba...and have gotten better.

On my own, I work on what I call "aural skills", which for me is hearing a pitch, and being able to recognize it, then reproduce it with a buzz on the mouthpiece. I really don't hear pitch well, and if I want to buzz an exercise, I have GOT to get the starting pitch from somewhere outside myself. I have no ability to play by ear (intervals escape my perception, as does pitch) which makes the ear training a real struggle. I do improve when I work on it.

The past 6 months, I have been taking lessons. I have some individual quirks as a player (particular notes that vex me) and through working with my teacher, I have been able to pinpoint those quirks. One of them, to no ones surprise, is that I don't hear the pitch in my head, thereby producing "bad" notes. As I have worked this problem, with about 4 specific notes, I have improved. One thing that is true is that we have, working together, found a way for me to think of some of the issues that I have, and find a concept that makes sense to me to help me work on some other things. I have found this to be very helpful.

One of the constant measures of success that I have had is: when I put in the time, I get results. I believe that to some extent, bloke's premise is right on: the most effective teacher is the student themselves. I believe that a teacher can provide guidance, and that in some cases, a "tune-up" for many players might be a good investment (catch bad habits, provide new information or a new way of thinking of things).

[humBell]

This is perhaps a subject close to me heart.

I got a recorder (cheap plastic) for xmas many years ago, and knowing how to read music, i used the finger chart what came with it, ran through collections of songs, hymns, fake books, what have you, patiently sounding some things out. it was a fantastic way to pass time, and i would say i got good enough for me, which perhaps isn't that good, not having a lot to compare it to. No rush anyway, to sound better.

I mostly took a similar attitude towards tuba, though with the initial incentive of trying to be helpful to a local group needing a tuba player. During the first few years, they were often able to provide a ringer for support, and otherwise were exceeding patient of my progress, for which i's grateful. But yeah, i might be passable at some point.

My current goal, i think is to busk a bit. There i hope to work out kinks in sound, and to play through my oddball assortment of low end craigslist acquisitions, which feels almost obligatory to learn as much as i can from everything. I kinda figure the tuba players who can make anything sound good are somewht correlated to those who have tried to make everything sound good.

I am given the opportunity to rejoin the group what first offered me a chance to play tuba after a several year hiatus, though it appears i'll be more valuable as a string bass player... which i need to work on too, basically not having done much more than downbeats in musical theater pit orchestras since high school...

But alas i'm slow, as i am to finally respond to this here thread.
I promise, i'll get better... eventually.

[MackBrass]

Here is a great example of thinking too much about the mechanics, equipment and technical side of playing. Most of us have encountered this at one point or another, i know i did when I was in college.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-NRQ3wRZETA" target="_blank

When i was in my mid 20s it struck me like a bolt of lightening, focus on the musical side and teach from a a musical perspective. I never get into equipment today, although when younger blamed a lot of my inability on tubas.

The worst teachers i have encountered were those who spent their time just playing along with you or teachers that just said it sucks go fix it.

The best teachers were those who did not play tuba or any kind of wind instrument. Take some lessons for a chello or a violin player.

I will call them out, best teachers i studied with were Steve Perry - musical monster, Toby Hanks, musical monster, Chester Schmits, unreal in all areas, Gene Pokorney, musical monster. Maureen Hines, Chello Pro and Mike Richardson, Bass Bone.

Then there are my past students, while teaching I found being on the other side of the seat to be very rewarding as i learned just as much from them as I did from anyone. When you start to teach you are forced to analyze concepts to be able to convey them in a simple and easy way for anyone to understand.

People who I would study with today if I ever got serious again, Roger Bobo and Allen Baer. And of course all the above already mentioned.

One thing I learned over the years, you can get something, even if very small out of anyone.

[toobagrowl]

Most effective teacher = yourself + a half-decent recording setup

[tbn.al]

============================================================

The most effective teacher ( ) is the player themselves.

At this point in my playing life that is probably a true statement. That has not always been the case though. Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. I spent a lot of years practicing the wrong way and getting no where, but I wasn't smart enough to know it. Only when I had someone that knew what they were doing looking over my shoulder did it begin to improve.

[dwerden]

I agree that *you* can be *your* best teacher... but you need to know what to teach yourself! Even with a recorder you may not know what to listen for.

I think it can be very valuable to do something like this:
- Find a respected player on YouTube (or CD or...) playing a piece within your general ability.
- Get the sheet music of the same piece.
- Work hard on playing 8 or 16 bars of the piece and try to sound like the other player. Play along, too, which can help.
- At some point record yourself playing the piece and compare it to the other player.
- Try to pick out WHY you sound different and work on that.
- Gradually expand on this to include the whole piece.
- Expand to other pieces.
- Also, find a piece recorded by non-euphoniumists, like strings or vocals. Do the same thing. String players and vocalists approach things differently from brass players and can give you whole new insights into musical performance.

Supplemental work:
- Find recordings of several other players doing the same piece.
- Compare them and decide why they sound different, which you prefer, and whether that difference is something you can bring into your playing.

The key is discernment.

Ongoing improvement:
- Listen to the great players and just *enjoy* them! Let the performance "soak into" your heart and head.

Non-you instructors:
- Some teachers are better at teaching some students than others. We had two great trumpet teachers at Iowa. One was great at teaching players who handled the horn very well already but needed help with artistry, excerpts, etc. The other was terrific at teaching those with some problems on the instrument (he would even practice doing things badly so he could demonstrate!).
- If you get with a big-name player, try to coax him/her to do a lot of demonstration during the lesson. Hearing it right next to you can be very valuable.

[Donn]

I spent a lot of years practicing the wrong way and getting no where, but I wasn't smart enough to know it.

I bet a quarter I spent more years practicing even more wrong! But I've managed to turn some of that around. I'm sure a teacher would have done some good, but in my slim experience with teachers ... the problems are internal, and I'd say they'd have to be pretty good at their game to see them. How many teachers are how good, is a question I wouldn't want to even get started on, but I think the point is, you have to take the lead. "Most effective" might vary from one day to the next, but if you think a teacher is going to be able to haul you up to another level by just telling you what to do ... I doubt that.

[SaintPeteTuba]

What kind of situations help us learn real time listening. Suzuki Method for tuba?
Dixieland? NOLA street bands? Any style etc? We all need to play without a page of instructions in our faces. Do you know how to harmonize a scale? If you do, I suggest finding a smaller group, any style, and learn how to play by ear. Learn to function as the bass of the group and learn the melodies too. If you don't know how to harmonize a scale get to work. Learn how to do this on as many instruments as possible. "Piano in your friend" R.R.

That's great advice, I started playing classical and brass quintet music then learned electric bass and tuba for Dixieland and modern jazz. From that point on, I felt I had truly become a much better musician in general. Learning to play by ear is invaluable. Getting away from printed music is the best one can do sometimes, but don't forget how to sight read.

[MaryAnn]

Some people are not able to figure out the mechanics needed to allow them to play the music they want to. Those people need a teacher who is both willing and able to show them the mechanics they are missing so that they can then revert to making the music they so much want to make. The (french) horn world is centered on what I call the Mystery School of playing, where discussing the mechanics is verboten, and a pretty good percentage of players flounders. The tuba world does not have its head up its rear like the horn world does; the two tuba pros I took lessons from both showed me exactly what they did to achieve range, which I never got from a plethora of horn teachers. And there are Roger Lewis's fantastic posts about how to play the range. After being shown the basics, then it was a no-brainer to use my own heart, mind, and soul to achieve the musical sound I was seeking. But without those blessed show-me-tell-me basic lessons, it would not have been achievable.

[Donn]

But without those blessed show-me-tell-me basic lessons, it would not have been achievable.

The down side of that, though, is if the instruction you're talking about is wrong, for you. When I started, I pulled some show-me-tell-me basics from a book - that set me back very significantly, worst thing idea I ever had was to follow those instructions. You would recognize those instructions, I bet a quarter they're the same you were given. I'm glad they work for you.

I guess there may at least implicitly be two kinds of people here: those who believes there's two kinds of people, and those who believes there aren't. Well, seriously, if you look at investigations into the embouchure from David Wilken (wilktone) and Doug Elliott, there's a fair argument to be made that we're different in ways that dictate the mechanical approach to playing. If you buy that, then the only reliable categorical advice is "do what works." I don't know if that's where your horn world is coming from. The key difference may be that the Elliott/Wilken/et al. school of thought apparently doesn't rule out instruction in mechanics, it just has to be tailored to the individual.

Those who believe there aren't different kinds of people, and we're all best off trying to use the same mechanics? I think the reality is so well documented by now, that this perspective can come only from ignorance. I've never seen anyone try to defend it.

[MaryAnn]

Where the horn world is coming from is that it is wrong to discuss the mechanics of embouchure, as if that discussion were the thing that will prevent someone from learning.
-------------
I have to admit that one thing that does bug me a lot is those people who do not have a physical disability themselves, and view themselves as superior *because* they don't, as if the person with the disability were at fault for having it. At the same time it is fascinating to me, and I wonder how incurring a disability would change the outlook of the snob I'm referring to. If someone who so far has had his body behave quite well in playing an instrument, and then his body starts doing odd things he cannot control, it would be quite a show to watch from here.

[tubeast]

Being Your own teacher is very beneficial, especially IN COMBINATION with solid one-on-one lessons with knowledgeable instructors. During the time I took private lessons, I would negotiate 90 minutes-lessons every TWO weeks rather than 45 minutes every week, the latter being the normal procedure at our local music school. More time to practise and think about what I was doing until being prodded back on track, if necessary.

Luckily I was able to take my time and practise for the next lessons as well as work on stuff my teacher was not involved in (quintet repertoire) as well as stuff that had NOTHING to do with his teaching, such as funk-bass licks, circular breathing or extended scale work. I maintain that working on stuff You´re NOT supposed to do in a certain genre will still be beneficial, since You´ll learn to consciously AVOID such techniques where they may not be appropriate.

Without lessons, though, I experienced bumping into some kind of glass ceiling I didn´t seem to be able to go beyond.
Occasional lessons (Maybe two to four per year) with very good instructors have helped me move that glass ceiling to a higher level.
That ceiling is still there, obviously, and I have backed up from it quite a bit over periods with less practise time and -energy, but I´m sure I can make myself bump into it on my own, before I need help to push it further.

Good instruction, combined with good practise aka "self-instruction" saves time.

Hans

[imperialbari]

Knowing what to listen for must be based in the ability to analyse the music happening in real time, no matter whether this music is based on written sheets or on forms developed in purely aural environments (plus the various crossover formats like a jazz combo all reading from the same lead-sheet despite everybody having very different functions).

At least in my country there was an amateur tradition, where the teaching aimed at little more than connecting the dots with the right fingerings and hopefully the right partials. Instructors asking for more often became less than popular. But then the amateur players never had been told how to read the music as it presents itself between and behind the dots.

bloke tells about bad teaching leading to bad breathing. A very loudmouthed section mate of mine went bananas about the lack of sense of a technically not very difficult piece, where the bass line partially went with the homophonic setting, partially played counterpoint across the phrases. I asked him to shut-up and give me his part into which I pencilled the right breating marks. After the piece he whispered: How comes that everything now sounded very logical.

Good teaching should transmit analytical knowledge about melody, harmony, counterpoint, and other formal elements. With brasses students also should be taught not alone elementary fingerings, but how to develop the full extended fingering chart for his/hers instrument, so that they can handle what is elementary with string playing like always keeping a leading note on the same partial (string) as the note it leads to. Also the above mentionen analytical skills should be applied to see that there are many more leading notes than just the third of the dominant.

TubeNet has discussed what the sense of music is and how it is taught. Even if Bach’s cello suites formally are for just one instrument, they obviously are written with an implied grid of harmony and rhythm which in my opinion only can be transmitted to the listeners, if the player represents the full, but imaginary, ensemble (thinking that way should, if nothing else, improve the level of intonation often heard in these pieces).

A teacher may transmit a lot of the said sense of music by playing duets with his/hers students. Either as duets written as such, as 2nd parts written by others than the original composer (like done with Bordogni and with Blazhevich), or in form of improvised second parts made up on the fly. Much of this goal also may be obtained by teaching students playing duets.

There is a tendency with students and amateurs to strive for technically challenging stuff which then is rattled off with musically less than satisfying results. Also goes with ensembles, which should rather have strived for the abilities needed to beautifully play a chorale or a slow romantic piece.

Stopping rant for now.

Klaus

[PaulMaybery]

First off, thanks Bloke for submitting a post that is pregnant with all sorts of potentially great responses. I think Mary Ann hit some of the issue on the nail. "Show me, tell me the basics."

One of my old revered teachers kept referring to the precept that we "transmit that which we have received." (Jacobs) That might seem a little "heady" but hey! we're talking about 'philosophy of education' here.

One quote sticks in my mind. Rousseau's philosophy of education concerns itself not with particular techniques of imparting information and concepts, but rather with developing the pupil's character and moral sense, so that he may learn to practice self-mastery and remain virtuous even in the unnatural and imperfect society in which he will have to live.

Today we would call this the disciplinary method of "natural consequences". Rousseau felt that "children learn right and wrong through experiencing the consequences of their acts rather than through physical punishment."

For my thinking, this somewhat Liberal Arts approach is rather intellectual rather than practical. The performer on stage does not have the luxury of being able to spontaneously sort through a plethora of thought concepts. He is more of a trained animal doing tricks as it were. The actual dependant musician is inside with a message that needs to be expressed through a disciplined and articulate language of sound.

Getting back to learning: Receiving the information is the key. Where did it come from? Was it from 'another' as in a teacher, or was it a certain 'epiphany' or 'self discovery' as in the 'light bulb.'

From my own experiences, I realize now that I was led down some slippery paths when it came to developing my fundimental approach to playing. In not really knowing what I was doing, I wound up forging many bad habits that to this day, 55 years later are still hard to get over. Each of those habits needed to be replaced with more functional ones. I say replaced, as breaking them never works. Like a virus, habits ALWAYS remain, dormant though they may be.

Diagnosis either by a great teacher (as Mr. Jacobs), or constant self experimentation, or constant seeking out better ways. identify problem areas. We do realize that at least in classical music, we perform according to an imposed and artificial standard, that is not all that forgiving. Jazz and folk musicians have much more wiggle room when it comes to creating an idividual voice in music.

But I agree with the self teaching point, but only to the degree that we need to monitor ourselves. The mind can certain wrap itself around a number of technical/physiological concepts and we can say "sure, I KNOW how to do that." I think of things like breathing, tongue placement, corners, jaw, facial tension, posture, neck position. Hell, we can think ourselfs right out of the music and into a sanitorium. The trick is about training the body to ACTUALLY perform the task. Perform it not just in ISOLATION, but in SEQUENCE with out having to stop the mind and select the thought processes that are required. I often refer to my better and very intelligent students, that they need to be like an animal trainer, and train their bodies to perform these 'tricks' on demand, without having to 'think' about them.
Granted scales, arpeggios, lip slurs etc all fall into this category, but what about other aspects such as posture, breating and tongue placement. Having to focus or think of just ONE of those takes mental acutity away from our musicianship.

So what am I saying? Our minds need to learn the best way to do something. Become well informed. Then, take that info and teach it to your body so it becomes a conditioned and disciplined response... a habit... not a drawn out thinking process... but a habit that responds correctly each time and produces consistant results. Thus, my analogy to the animal trainer.

Paul (who sometimes wishes he had a fancy long whip he could crack over the head of a tuba playing tiger.) Maybery

[pjv]

The best teacher is:
The teacher that can teach students how to teach themselves. This includes time allocation management and encouraging absorbing as much about music as humanly possible.
Probably as important is whether or not the student and the teacher are a good match. A teacher can be the most brilliant on earth but if they remind you with every word of your own mother, well..., you get the idea.

[hup_d_dup]

It so happens I had a tuba lesson this morning. In one of the etudes I've been working on I have had difficulty with a particular slur that doesn't shift well. I have been working on it without much success.

When this passage came up in the lesson my teacher said forget about the embouchure and just give more support. The slur cleaned up right away. Not perfect but more progress in about a minute than all the time I had put in working on it alone.

Now of course I am aware of the importance of good air support – it's been drummed into me for years. But for some reason I had stalled and ended up focusing on the wrong thing (kind of stupid I admit). If I was a better musician I probably could have quickly solved it for myself . . . not being a great musician I might have solved it even then through trial, error and frustration.

But my point is that sometimes being your own teacher is not having the best teacher.

Hup