How do you judge "Projection"?

[Matt Walters]

I read in a recent post something I see posted many times.

Concerning the horn itself, maybe it was just the large room I was in but it seemed to me that the one I played didnt seem to project much.

Without using a sound pressure meter or getting feedback from others some distance from the actual tuba being played, how does a player know if a horn is "not projecting"? I've certainly heard a lot of different sounds come out of the same horn being tested in the store.

What makes you say one horn projects more than another when you can't be both playing it and at some point a good distance away to hear how well the horn projects?

[windshieldbug]

The only way I ever thought I could judge "projection" is by having members of the trombone section out in the hall give me their opinions on different mouthpieces and horns.

[groovlow]

I've certainly heard a lot of different sounds come out of the same horn being tested in the store.

Is there a sweet spot in the room?

[bort]

Projection is a hard to know from behind the bell. I'd guess that a "bad projection" horn either lacks clarity, response to the player, or is maybe not an efficient tuba. Or, its all BS.

Frankly Matt, having been to the shop more than a few times, I don't know how you could really evaluate projection in that small confined space. Like any play test, its a good place to decide if you want to buy it. It takes far more playing and input from trusted people on the other side of the bell to know what's really going on.

[Lee Stofer]

I hear you, Matt. I'm of the opinion that projection (or lack thereof) has more to do with the player than any given instrument.

[PaulMaybery]

If you can manage to arrive at the hall prior to all the birdlike noodling, harp tuning and percussion ordinance explosions, there is a good chance to get a feel for what your sound does.

For instance, this afternoon, for a childrens' concert I arrived over a hour ahead of schedule.
I sat down and quietly warmed up with my mute. Then, I began to play and listen carefully to what was coming from the back wall of the hall. As I played each note, I can recall "projecting' it, as it were, to those regions in the rear. I would like to relate a story from my old revered teacher Abe Torchinsky in the Philly Orchestra. He talked about projection... not just playing loud, but where is your sound reaching? Abe told a story of the famed oboist, Marcel Tabuteau, whose sound presence was uncanny. Tabuteau's musical influence pervaded the entire Philly Orchestra and was one of the defining factors for their uniqueness of sound.

The story: One upon a time, Tabuteau was asked what he thought of when he played a solo p[assage with such incredible phrasing and such a pervasive sound. His comments: (and I loosely paraphrase, but I think you will get the point.) "I look for a beautiful woman in the top balcony, and I play as if serenading her alone."

I think this is a marvelous analogy of what we need to do from the inner rows of a wonderful orchestra. Ask your self; Where am I putting my sound? In some cases it is barely making it over the top of the music stand. Sometimes it is just loud and blatty. (Not me) But the key is where are you putting that sound.

My other revered teacher was Arnold Jacobs. Mr. Jacobs, asked me only once, "Sonny. (he always called me 'sonny') why are you trying to play so loudly. My response was that I wanted to sound like him. "No, No, No. I don't play loud, I project. It's all about projection. You can play as light as a feather and still project."

A few years back, I was playing with the Austin (MN) Symphony in a large venue of about 3000. I spoke with a fellow in the lobby afterward who enjoyed my playing. He said he was sitting high up in the balcony and that my sound was as smooth as butter and sounded as if I were right next to him. Yes, I thought. That is what I had hoped for.

Now I have always had great horns that can translate my musical intentions. Back then it was my old trusty King CC rotary. Today is was a magnificent BMB F tuba. I have been fortunate in that regard. But so much has to do with how one addresses the instrument and speaks through it. Mr. Jacobs used the phrase: "Tell a story with your playing."

If you make it heard, you WILL project.

Paul (projecting his thoughts and telling stories) Maybery

[Matt Walters]

Paul,
Excellent story. I too like to get to performance venue early enough that I can bounce a few notes off the back wall and get a feeling for how the hall will respond. My "Aha moment" occurred when as a 16 year old kid playing a master class in front of Harvey Phillips, he taught me to play so that each note was a ball of sound coming out of the bell of my tuba to be sent back to the balcony. pp was a little ball and FF was a very big ball. I came back to my private lesson and my teacher said, "Now I know what you are going to sound like." I told him what Harvey said and he said "I've been telling you the same basic thing, but as long as you got the message that's great." Thank you Harvey Phillips.

[JCalkin]

Paul,
Excellent story. I too like to get to performance venue early enough that I can bounce a few notes off the back wall and get a feeling for how the hall will respond. My "Aha moment" occurred when as a 16 year old kid playing a master class in front of Harvey Phillips, he taught me to play so that each note was a ball of sound coming out of the bell of my tuba to be sent back to the balcony. pp was a little ball and FF was a very big ball. I came back to my private lesson and my teacher said, "Now I know what you are going to sound like." I told him what Harvey said and he said "I've been telling you the same basic thing, but as long as you got the message that's great." Thank you Harvey Phillips.

Matt,

That was one of the most significant things I got from my lessons with you also. I still use the ball analogy in my teaching, but I had no idea you had gotten it from Harvey!

[windshieldbug]

The trouble is that, of course, halls sound very different when empty and full of people...

[Three Valves]

I told my wife she was a controlling, manipulating, loud mouth.

She then accused me of "projecting??"

[DaveWright]

I teach my students to visualize the tone going through the horn and out the bell, emphasizing the air speed it takes to achieve that. Changing the air to wind(air with purpose) allows the tone to free itself from the confines of the horn to find the ears of a grateful audience. To ask for more control of the tone after it leaves the horn, well, it's like expecting that girl in the balcony to pay for the dinner that you haven't invited her to. You can feel when your projection is hitting the mark and gets the personal response hoped for.
Art is not what you say it is, it's what the audience says it is.

[Travis99079]

It's good to read lots of wisdom on such an obscure thing to describe with only words. I was curious if anyone around might know of recordings where a player on a "smaller" tuba does an excellent job of projecting over the ensemble? I've had many a conversation where players are convinced that sort of thing is all about the equipment, and less about the player behind it. Surely it doesn't take a 7/4 horn to win jobs...

[Matt Walters]

I was curious if anyone around might know of recordings where a player on a "smaller" tuba does an excellent job of projecting over the ensemble? I've had many a conversation where players are convinced that sort of thing is all about the equipment, and less about the player behind it. Surely it doesn't take a 7/4 horn to win jobs

You are looking for recordings of Ray Stewart playing a Conn 3J CC tuba. If you walked into the room where he was just playing a small CC tuba, you would ask "Which is that big tuba you were just playing before I got here?"

[bort]

Aren't there a lot of recordings of Roger Bobo using a Miraphone 184 in large groups?

[Mikelynch]

For projection through focus and clarity of sound, check out any of the Bernstein NYPhil recordings with Joe Novotny playing a .687 bore King with a 16 inch bell. Prok. 5, Fanfare for the Common Man, and Lincoln Portrait are all excellent (as are many others).

[bisontuba]

For projection through focus and clarity of sound, check out any of the Bernstein NYPhil recordings with Joe Novotny playing a .687 bore King with a 16 inch bell. Prok. 5, Fanfare for the Common Man, and Lincoln Portrait are all excellent (as are many others).

Huge+1!

[PaulMaybery]

Old Boston recordings with Smith on F tuba. I have him doing Tchai 4. Amazing.

[pjv]

I know that close mic recordings are not the same as concert hall gigs, but...
Tommy Johnson often used a Miraphone 185 CC for years in the studio, an instrument known for its clarity of sound. A lot of people hate these horns but he never saw reason to switch.

Brass instruments are made to project. A well made tuba that plays freely, clear and in tune should project enough for any situation. I think the question is what kind of tuba sound does a player wants to have and/or need?

Will a gorgeous sounding BAT with a red brass bell have a distinguishable tuba sound in the concert hall when it's playing the Ritt der Walküren? Probably not as much as the player hoped for (unless the hall and where the tuba sits is pro-tuba).
The player might have been happier with a 185 (as long as he/she doesn't overblow it). If the attack (the front end of the note) is audible then thats usually more then enough info to let the listener know there's a tuba in the room.

Whenever I record for others, especially I'm doubling a bass part, I usually let the producer/tech know that my balance in the mix is, of coarse, their business. But if they want to let the listener know that there's something more happening then just the bass their job will be much easier if the tuba attacks are audible.

I think whats more important is if I feel I can get the job done with the least amount of effort. I'm the one doing the work, not the tuba. In this sense it's just a tool. Sorry tuba.

[PaulMaybery]

One more 'thought,' or perhaps it should be a 'non-thought' thought.

Like such things as technique, intonation, phrasing, type of tone, sound concept etc, etc, etc, 'projection' is best when it is on 'auto pilot.' In a perfect world, one's concept and approach to projection, whatever that might be, is an aquired skill. It does take sufficient practice to be able to pull it off 'without' thinking about it.

Personally, I particularly enjoy getting a chance to practice 'projection' in a large room. Learning how to send the sound from the mp, out the horn and to a certain 'other' place takes a 'bit of getting use to.' At this point in life, I believe it is something I tend to do automatically. It pretty much only takes one healthy note to figure out the feedback from the room. But the skill to keep automatically 'pumping' those notes is 'acquired.'

I also concur that projection is more about the player than the horn.

If you stop to think about it, there is a term that perhaps is something more inherent to the instrument, and that is "presence." How does the 'combination' of tuba and its mp actually respond, type of tone, and how does that sound 'hold together' when pushed to its limits in a high performance situation such as in a world class major orchestra where all eyes and ears are on a certain player, performing certain repertory, that has certain expectations of how 'grand and glorious' it should be rendered. Subtle differences can make or break the experience.

Paul (who loves thinking about "stuff" but who would rather just adjust the nobs and let it rip) Maybery

[swillafew]

A little Kodak moment came back to me. A euphonium recital by Roger Oyster was taking place in Ann Arbor. I was about 2/3 of the way back from the stage. His sound seemed to be coming off the ceiling more than out of his horn, and you could look up and reckon exactly where he should have been up there. It was a clinic, so to speak.