high g#: Bydlo vs. VW concerto

[MikeMason]

it seems every high school kid can play the VW concerto with extended cadenza but even some pros still sweat Bydlo. isn't it the same note? you might say "pressure", but doing a concerto as THE soloist is pretty high pressure, as is soloing on one short movement. just a thought.........ps, i personally live in fear of either and hope to never do either in public

[Aubrey Foard]

That and the conductor is probably trying to stare you down...

[Jonathan Fowler]

From my experience this is the difference

On a solo recital, one will miss notes...like it or not. This being said (and known) whether you miss the high Ab or the first c in the VW you can still make a respectable performance-granted you don't miss all of the other notes

Bydlo is different, I don't think that the volume or the skip is as much of an issue...the hard part is threefold
1. ou have to sit through about 12 minutes of music before coming in (in 99% of the performances you will be playing a cold horn because of the switch)
2. You are playing in a group of around 75-90, if you screw up it makes the whole group look bad, and ruins the effect of the entire movement
3. You don't get much of a chance to redeem yourself, the first part is 1 blow, if you miss the high g#'s (or just some) you missed your one chance to shine-this being said, if you make a mess of the first half, chances are you will not nail the last one, where volume is an issue

next time you play bydlo w/orchestra remember "If I screw this up I'm letting everyone down..."

don't get nervous

jon

[Dean]

Or....

You could just play it on euphonium and not worry about it...

Euphonium is MUCH closer to the originally intended instrument than a tuba is...

[Dean]

Whenever I find an orchestra director that actually realizes that this solo SHOULD be played on euphonium, perhaps I will get a chance to send you that recording.

My point was not to say that the solo is easy or hard. I was simply making a new point--this solo was NOT meant for tuba! No offence meant, and some people will argue this, but hey, there is no argument...

The instrument this was written for is no longer used--but it was actually pitched a STEP HIGHER than today's Bb euphonium...

So why would anyone want to play it on an instrument that is pitched a 5th, 6th, or an octave or more lower than the instrument it was written for? Got me!?!?

[Rick Denney]

The instrument this was written for is no longer used--but it was actually pitched a STEP HIGHER than today's Bb euphonium...

Perhaps, but when I look at the part, I don't see "Petit Tuba ut C" in the upper left corner. I see "Tuba". That leads to many possibilities. All the common choices were readily available when Ravel orchestrated the work. Further, he orchestrated the work at the commission of Serge Koussivetsky of (I seem to recall) the Boston Symphony. I don't know what sort of tuba was used in that group at that time, but Vinal Smith who came along only a little later reportedly played everything on F.

If he intended the Bydlo solo for the French C tuba, then surely he intended everything else in the work for that instrument, too. The low parts in the first movement are certainly playable on the 6-valve French percolator, but I don't know anyone who would use such an instrument for those notes, even in France.

My point is that Ravel is not around to confirm that he intended the part for a Small French Tuba in C, and so proving it one way or the other is impossible.

If someone asked me to play Pictures, I'd use a euphonium in a heartbeat, and I'd use all your arguments to persuade the conductor to allow it. But in the back of my mind I would not be too confident of being right about what Ravel intended.

At my level of playing, that G# is nearly as scary on a euphonium as on an F tuba. On the former, it's a secure and repeatable practice-room note, on the latter, it's available but neither secure nor repeatable. Solos in the ensemble on a real stage seem to downgrade my ability just about one level, which might be just enough to sap all the security and repeatability out of my euphonium playing.

The question is: What does an oxcart sound like? I haven't heard many oxcarts, but the ones I have heard have never made melodies. I therefore think of the underlying quarter notes as the oxcart and the melody as being either 1.) the song of the cart driver, or 2.) the internal music the ox mulls over to distract himself from his boring task. I haven't seen the painting, but either of those possibilities requires a singing interpretation. That means sneaking in from thin air on the last appearance of the high G#, which t'aint nuttin' like blasting up there in the RVW or the Gregson (oops--that one is just a G), or even the Bb in Symphonie Fantastique.

Rick "who thinks using a euphonium is a practical choice but not necessarily the definitive choice" Denney

[UDELBR]

The low parts in the first movement are certainly playable on the 6-valve French percolator, but I don't know anyone who would use such an instrument for those notes, even in France.

Check here.

[Rick Denney]

Whether Ravel intended Bydlo to be played on a proper bass tuba is somewhat irrelevant. The point is that he would have been accustomed to the sound of the French Petite Tuba in C. I rather doubt that at the time Ravel produced his orchestration of Pictures, there would have been anybody in Paris who was regularly using a German F tuba.

I agree with your first sentence. Despite the recording (from way back, apparently) where a Parisian tuba player used the French C tuba for the whole work, that doesn't mean any modern player would do it. Why do we get all historically precise for the Bydlo and not for the rest of the work? The reason is that we are trying to justify a decision we want (or need) to make for practical reasons.

Ravel created the orchestration in the 1920's as I recall, which though a long time ago is not so long that nobody could travel. For example, Ravel had already worked with Vaughan Williams by that time, and RVW surely did not and would not have orchestrated for the French C tuba. Ravel's sound experience would not have been limited to the small instrument. Again, what he did or didn't intend is no longer knowable; it's only guessable.

Thus, while I think it entirely sensible to use a euphonium or tenor tuba for the part, I wouldn't dream of smirking at a tuba player who used an F (or a C, for that matter) if they did so musically.

Rick "mildly ranting against selective use of musicological certitude" Denney

[Dean]

Why do we get all historically precise for the Bydlo and not for the rest of the work? The reason is that we are trying to justify a decision we want (or need) to make for practical reasons.

The reason I do--honestly, because I am a euphoniumist. And someday, before I die, I'd like to play one out of the small handful of euph orchestral parts. On top of that, this one is one of my favorites. Do I think it sounds better on euph?? Well, ya, but thats hardly fair since I am a eupher....

I still say it should be done on euph to be closer to the French C tuba--in more ways than one. What are the reasons to NOT do it on euph?

Anyway, none of this really matters--its all up to the conductor in the end..

[KenS]

A long time ago, I auditioned for a fairly well known symphony for a one year gig... One of the audition pieces was the Bydlo. No way could I do it on my CC so I brought a euph. Noone said a thing, I didn't get bounced at that point and I finished the audition.

[TubaKen]

This discussion leads me to wonder: how many professionals in major US orchestras actually perform Bydlo? I know, for example, that in Cleveland and Chicago one of the trombones (the second bone, I believe) plays Bydlo. The last two performances in my area (San Diego Symphony and LA Phil), they brought in a extra player just to play Bydlo.
So, of recent perfomances by "the majors" you are aware of, did the tuba player play Bydlo? If so, what kind of horn did they use?
If not, was it performed by one of the trombones, or did they bring in an extra?
Thanks

[Rick Denney]

So, of recent perfomances by "the majors" you are aware of, did the tuba player play Bydlo? If so, what kind of horn did they use?

I'll define "major" as any regular symphony tuba player who gets paid to play.

I've heard the Bydlo live twice. Both times, it was played by the tuba player. On one occasion, the world-class performer used an F and baubled slightly on the last high G# entrance. I don't suspect everyone even noticed. The rest of it was superlative.

The other occasion, I had reports from other musicians in the orchestra (this is not an orchestra I've ever talked about on this forum; definitely not San Antonio), and they told me that the performer tried it on F tuba during two reheasals and had serious problems both times. During the third rehearsal, he played a euphonium, and I heard him play the euphonium during the performance. He had serious troubles on both occasions with the euphonium, too.

Remember that guys like, say, Pat Sheridan play dozens of performances a year, while a symphony player has to make this lick work every time during perhaps three performances. If he messes up, Pat gets to try again tomorrow night or next week. If the symphony player messes up the Bydlo, he gets to try again five years from now, maybe. The whole stress structure is different.

Pokorny performs the Bydlo on his excerpts CD using an Alexander 151 tenor tuba (really a rotary kaiser baritone), and does so beautifully. Somehow, I think getting it right when a mess-up only requires a retake is less stressful than doing it on stage. My understanding is that he doesn't perform that solo in the CSO. He suggests that after getting the gig, consider giving that music to a trombonist. If it's something he fears, then I think pretty much anybody should suffer no shame if they fear it, too.

Rick "who would use a euphonium and hope for the best, but who would never in a million years be asked to play it in the first place" Denney

[dopey]

im just curious, and prolly the dumbest question asked in this thread but..

these G#/Ab in the bydlo and VW are they thes ones above the staff, or still within?

Jacob"trying to see if he could even attempt to play vw" morgan

[Dean]

above

[JB]

these G#/Ab in the bydlo and VW are they thes ones above the staff, or still within?

Above. (Three ledger lines above, actually.)



.

[Roger Lewis]

The solo, while representing the ox cart, is actually more likely the singing of the ox cart driver. The great Russian men's choruses are known for the great voices and the exceptional style they have. Even though this is probably a peasant driving the ox cart it doesn't mean that he cannot sing with vibrato and beautiful color. As long as the bass/baritone voice is represented by the player it shouldn't matter which horn it is done on.

I know there are some conductors that want it played in a very drab manner without any trace of vibrato. Personally I don't feel that's appropriate (but will do what I'm told).

Personally I believe in maximizing my chances of success and do it on a euph with a Bobo cheater mouthpiece. It gives it a nice dark sound and the partials are still far enough apart on the euph to make it easier to get things to slot. The dark sound of the Miraphone euph helps a lot also.

Just my take on things.

[JB]

Personally I believe in maximizing my chances of success and do it on a euph with a Bobo cheater mouthpiece.

Could you provide some details/description of this "Bobo cheater" mouthpiece, and is it commercially available?


.

[tubacdk]

bobo tenor tuba mouthpiece info: http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/catalo ... s_id=16609

I have performed pictures twice, and I played bydlo both times. The first time I used a Besson Euph with a mpc similar to the bobo linked above, and the second time I used an Alexander 151 (tenor tuba/kaiser rotary euph/whatever you wanna call it) with the bobo tenor mpc. I much prefer the sound of the Alex, it has a breadth and warmth that really blends with the sonorities around it. I agree with Roger Lewis that the solo is actually the voice of the driver instead of the sounds of the cart itself.

as far as the intent of the composer/orchestrator, I'm sure that he would want the solo to be played as musically as possible, no matter what the equipment, so long as it has a characteristic low brass voice. I can guarantee you that he'd prefer to hear a secure, musical solo on a "tenor" instrument instead of a squeezed and nervous solo on a "bass" instrument. On the other hand, if you can make the best musical statement on your F tuba, more power to you.

I heard great reviews about Jeff Anderson playing bydlo on his F tuba with SF recently.... I'm sure Ravel would have been pleased.

[windshieldbug]

You have to sit through about 12 minutes of music before coming in

... and

4. Most of the audience has at least HEARD Bydlo done well before, whereas perhaps the two audience members that have ANY acquaintance with the tuba have any knowledge that the Vaughan Willians exists, let alone what it sounds like.

I played it in one series on my 45 just to prove to myself I could do it. ABOUT HAD A HEART ATTACK LEADING UP TO IT , but somehow, it went well. The next series, I used a euphonium. I should have given it to a trombonist, but why let them have the fun? It's a beautifully written solo...

[tbn.al]

There is an interesting argument that the "Ox Cart" title is really a polictical smokescreen. What do you guys think?

Here's a link. http://www.geocities.jp/tatsuyabanno/Bi ... dlo-e.html