Affordable F Tubas

[MackBrass]

You seem to imply heavily that a used Mack Brass horn can be sold for the same price as a new one, which I just don't see.

Where am I implying heavily?

I cited 1 example and made a simple claim. Never did i say my horns can be sold for the same amount used as they cost new, get your facts right. If you cant dont quote me and dont put words in my mouth.

[KyleRichter]

I was just offering my opinion on an affordable option for an f tuba besides "buy my Chinese horns". You've truly been a pleasure to converse with Mr. Mack.

[MackBrass]

but it is a web site about the sponsors, you haven't gotten that yet?
and the sponsors can be pretty touchy about their wares, especially
since they target "affordable" and incessantly hammer the term
until you believe it is important
stupid consumers deserve to be targeted for sales,
in the old days we'd have said this violates a social justice paradigm
but who gives a **** anymore right?

So now your going to paint with a broad brush? Really? I rarely post on this board but when I see such ingorance i find it difficult to not respond.
Fist off if it wasn't for the sponsors of this board you wouldn't have a place to post your rants as its people like me and the few others that make it possible. There will always be haters and those that hate will never grow. There are those who are open to new ideas and those people will take everything else to the next highest level.

Gosh Tom, when you get bent you really flail about. Do you want us to say "thank-you for coming along to fund tubenet"? Do you want us to ignore the appearance that sponsors can feel entitled to do whatever they want here because of coin thrown to the guy making money off this site? And -choke- are you really suggesting that "affordable" is a "new idea" and we need to be open-minded to you in order to "get to the next level"?? To use your word, really?!?
News flash: this bbs is a playground, there may be some folks who take your biz as seriously as you do, but (painful as it may seem) there are also folks who don't give a rats behind whether your biz sinks or swims. Is killing discussion about certain specialty horn "markets" part and parcel your goal here? There are a lot of great used first-f tubas out there in closets, unused, that people have investments in and because of the advent of "affordable" stuff (like you sell) they have to take a significant depreciation hit if they want to sell them and upgrade. And because of that reality at least some of those horns remain in closets. That depreciation hit is bigger than it used to be because of your wares, and your effort to distribute them. Two way street, you want your profit, there is an impact upon your market. No one is unfairly pointing that out. Like curmudgeon pointed out, the rest of us need a constant reminder that the f tuba market amongst tuba players is not growing...just like curmudgeon said .... and that said the depreciation hit on the next affordable knockoffs WILL be disproportionately larger, that is basic economics and NOT a personal slam on you...nor meant to put you on the defensive or elicit truly insulting retorts. We GET that you want to sell **** (duh) ... and I personally think you contribute far more to this site in your occasional posts than your colleague/competition in the UK ...but the overweaning sense of entitlement to your market ...or this site...because you have a financial horse in the race? well, thats just a **** up part of reality I guess... and exactly the reason I mentioned that whole social justice paradigm thingy ....in the end you don't need to worry because no one really gives a **** why you sell, or really what you sell, really -30-

You see, in the 1860s, tobacconist John Hull created an elaborate, money-making hoax in which he had a 10-foot-tall stone statue of a man carved and then buried in Cardiff, New York. The giant stone man was then dug up again and Hull was now able to sell it as an archaeological oddity. In 1869, Hannum and four business partners took the bait and paid $37,500 for the worthless artifact thinking that they could turn a profit by charging people to get a glimpse of it. A lot of buzz was generated about the giant (was he a petrified biblical figure? an ancient Native American statue? a distant ancestor of Bill Walton?), and as thousands of people began to pay good money to get a gander, it looked like Hannum’s investment was going to pay off quite nicely. That is, until clever P. T. Barnum entered the picture. Always the sly one, Barnum built a giant of his own and claimed that it was the true Cardiff Giant – a fake of a fake! When people flocked to see Barnum’s creation, hapless Hannum (who didn’t even know at that point that he himself had paid roughly 40 grand for a fake) mused at the on-lookers, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”

I dont like to be misquoted or to have words put in my mouth with false accusations. 99.9 percent of my business comes from areas outside this board as i dont push my business on this forum and never will. I know you dont care about what i sell or what others sell and frankly that is fine by me. I also dont like to lumped in to broad groups of how others behave as i am not part of the problem, when this happens tou can be rest assured I will comment at that point.

[bort]

Back on-topic...

For non-Chinese tubas, there are a few options that you will sometimes see in the $3,000 range:

Meinl-Weston 45 (pretty nice tubas with a "have to earn it" low range)
Miraphone 181 (see above) -- these seem pretty uncommon in the US right now
Miraphone 180 (like above, but NO low range)
Cerveny 653 (pretty nice tuba, but very small)
Meinl-Weston 182 (same as Cerveny 653)

You might also find a B&S (PT-10 or an older Symphonie) or an Alexander in the $4,000 range sometimes.

I'm not sure what "affordable" means to you, but I think you'd have trouble finding something good under $3,000.

[Bob Kolada]

If we can replace "F" with "bass" then that opens a lot more options- Yamaha 321/381, various Besson's including the small bell versions, old York/Conn/Kings if one was already open to cheap 3 valve F's,...

[Rick Denney]

I paid in the three thousands for a used B&S Symphonie with five valves, and then paid about $4000 for a six-valve B&S 3099/1 (with the same bore profile as the original Symphonie, but not as old). These are the F tubas by which others are measured, and reports of their inability to play low C are greatly exaggerated by people who try to play them like C tubas. If you must have an F tuba that behaves like a C tuba, get a used Yamaha 822 and call it a day. But it won't easily produce the sweet F-tuba sound. The old B&S achieved an ability to do its job in an orchestra without giving up the sweetness of vintage F tubas like the Alexander. In my view, enlarging the smallest bores in the old Symphonie did not improve the instrument, and that is apparent to me also in the copies of those later instruments.

I would rather have a B&S 3099/1 than a modern budget-brand version of it, even though the new upstart might be about the same price as the used B&S. The reason is that they have already had their mechanical issues worked out, and they are a proven design in their details (and it's in those details where vintage and contemporary differ). The F tubas of current make that I think are really better, though still not as sweet-sounding, are in the Miraphone line, and they are affordable only compared to other German and Swiss makes. But an old B&S is still quite competitive.

If you want an F tuba for solo and chamber music, look no further.

I've played some of the Chinese-made F tubas, and some are quite nice. As for me, I'd still rather own the original from which they were modeled, if they are at the same price on the secondary market.

If the OP wants an F tuba that is cheaper than the $3000-4000 range, compromises will be necessary, as with C tubas.

Rick "who spent the last evening playing some great F tubas, one of which was that old 5-valve Symphonie" Denney